Time off and being on call

FL350

FL350

Well-Known Member
I work for a small 135 company in California, and being the only SIC at our company it can be difficult scheduling time off. So I am curious how it works at other companies.
It's a pretty close knit culture where I work, and I want to get as many hours as possible so I make myself available on a 2hr call all the time, unless I specifically request a certain day off.
My boss has never set any ground rules for being on call or anything like that. So if a last minute trip comes up he gives me a call and says "how quickly can you be at the airport?"

How's it work at other companies? It's getting difficult to not do any of my own vacation / time off where I know I won't get called.
 
Well I can tell you that the way you guys do it is against the FARs. You cannot be on call 24/7, being on call is duty. Unfortunately this is how most 135 operators work. 24 hour on call is that unwritten rule of 135 charter. Management likes to cal it a grey area which is completely incorrect. If you read the regs it makes it very clear.

The company I work for has us start duty at 10am, and ends at 10pm when we are on rotation. We get a minimum of 10 scheduled days off a month, then when it comes to either fly, or be on duty, we have a set duty period.

I really don't know what to say other than to express your concerns about taking time off/vacation and see what he says.
 
In addition to the above, per the regs you need to be getting 13 scheduled days off per quarter.

This doesn't mean looking back and retroactively counting days off, it's pretty clear they need to be scheduled.

If you're not at least getting that, find somewhere else to work.
 
FL350 said:
I work for a small 135 company in California, and being the only SIC at our company it can be difficult scheduling time off. So I am curious how it works at other companies.
It's a pretty close knit culture where I work, and I want to get as many hours as possible so I make myself available on a 2hr call all the time, unless I specifically request a certain day off.
My boss has never set any ground rules for being on call or anything like that. So if a last minute trip comes up he gives me a call and says "how quickly can you be at the airport?"

How's it work at other companies? It's getting difficult to not do any of my own vacation / time off where I know I won't get called.
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Sounds like you may have contributed to this by making yourself available. Go talk to them about it, and ask for some set days off.
 
I am getting the 13 off per quarter, but they are scheduled kind of randomly.

I'll probably be moving on soon anyways.

Not really complaining about how it's going right now, but was curious of how other operators worked. Thanks for your input!
 
We work a 12 Day on 2 Day off rotation where we are essentially on call for those 12 with the required 10 hours of rest after a duty period. However my company only sees duty as a trip or other work at the company. Its complete crap and I hope it changes some day. As far as requesting time off we can request Paid Time Off and usually get it and also request Vacation if we need it.
 
Crockrocket94 said:
We work a 12 Day on 2 Day off rotation where we are essentially on call for those 12 with the required 10 hours of rest after a duty period. However my company only sees duty as a trip or other work at the company. Its complete crap and I hope it changes some day. As far as requesting time off we can request Paid Time Off and usually get it and also request Vacation if we need it.
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Yup, until it is uniformly enforced by all of the FSDO's, it won't change.
 
It's funny at my old 135 I brought this subject up and was told exactly that. It's a "grey area". I responded with a list of FAA legal interpretations that it was pretty black and white. Both I and the CP moved on before any traction was made, but management's first response was well we can keep the be at home but be here in x minutes IF you're called or we can have you sit here at the airport 14hrs if your on call. Your choice. I don't miss that.
 
mojo6911 said:
Yup, until it is uniformly enforced by all of the FSDO's, it won't change.
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This is EXACTLY it. The regs are CRYSTAL clear. However, until they actually get enforced, the 24/7 "available for duty" thing will always be there at 90%+ of the 135 operators.

It will likely take a highly publicized, high profile crash to put this issue into the spotlight before anything is done about it.
 
We don't have any set on/off duty times, but I've never gotten called at an odd time of the day, and the one time I got a call to do something late at night, I was asked if I was rested enough to do it. I had gotten up at 0500 that morning, so I said no, and that was it. I've also gotten every day off that I have asked for. I don't have any hard days off, unless I specifically ask for one. Could be better, but could be a lot worse.
 
Jimmy_Norton said:
We don't have any set on/off duty times, but I've never gotten called at an odd time of the day, and the one time I got a call to do something late at night, I was asked if I was rested enough to do it. I had gotten up at 0500 that morning, so I said no, and that was it. I've also gotten every day off that I have asked for. I don't have any hard days off, unless I specifically ask for one. Could be better, but could be a lot worse.
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It isn't about "could be better, but could be a lot worse." It is about whether or not it is legal. If they call you at noon today, can you say no? If not, then you're on call, and on call is not rest. On top of that, you are required to have 13 days off per calendar quarter. You can't just look back and say since you didn't fly, you were off. If you were required to be at the airport if they called, then it wasn't a day off.

I started a thread about this a while back. While the POIs and FSDOs let the practice slide, the FAA itself is very cut and dry about the issue. On call is not rest. Period. No question about it. "The company doesn't do it often" is not an excuse. If you were required to be at the airport if they called, then you weren't on rest. If you weren't on rest and you accept a flight and have something go wrong, I would expect that you will have some legal issues after. The company will probably get a wrist slap with a "don't do that again." You will have certificate action that will follow you for the rest of your career. Try explaining "intentionally broke an FAR with passengers on board" during a job interview.

I would suggest reading this thread. The links in my first two posts no longer work. The corrected links are on page two of the thread. http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/on-call-and-rest-for-part-135.157898/
 
SrFnFly227 said:
It isn't about "could be better, but could be a lot worse." It is about whether or not it is legal. If they call you at noon today, can you say no? If not, then you're on call, and on call is not rest. On top of that, you are required to have 13 days off per calendar quarter. You can't just look back and say since you didn't fly, you were off. If you were required to be at the airport if they called, then it wasn't a day off.

I started a thread about this a while back. While the POIs and FSDOs let the practice slide, the FAA itself is very cut and dry about the issue. On call is not rest. Period. No question about it. "The company doesn't do it often" is not an excuse. If you were required to be at the airport if they called, then you weren't on rest. If you weren't on rest and you accept a flight and have something go wrong, I would expect that you will have some legal issues after. The company will probably get a wrist slap with a "don't do that again." You will have certificate action that will follow you for the rest of your career. Try explaining "intentionally broke an FAR with passengers on board" during a job interview.

I would suggest reading this thread. The links in my first two posts no longer work. The corrected links are on page two of the thread. http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/on-call-and-rest-for-part-135.157898/
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The big problem is why is the FAA so cavalier about companies violating FARs but midieval when a pilot does. They both hold certificates. Both should be held accountable. "No company may assign and no pilot may accept."

As per the usual with the FAA, they will wait until a corp jet kills a bunch of people.

It may be time as an industry to escalate this concern with specific company names and POI names directly to the FAA. Those businesses have no business being in business, and those POIs need to be shown the door.
 
SrFnFly227 said:
It isn't about "could be better, but could be a lot worse." It is about whether or not it is legal. If they call you at noon today, can you say no? If not, then you're on call, and on call is not rest. On top of that, you are required to have 13 days off per calendar quarter. You can't just look back and say since you didn't fly, you were off. If you were required to be at the airport if they called, then it wasn't a day off.
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We all agree with you, dude. It does no good to try to piss up hill. Management won't change it if the FSDO gets away with it. It's as simple as that.
 
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cencal83406 said:
The big problem is why is the FAA so cavalier about companies violating FARs but midieval when a pilot does. They both hold certificates. Both should be held accountable. "No company may assign and no pilot may accept."

As per the usual with the FAA, they will wait until a corp jet kills a bunch of people.

It may be time as an industry to escalate this concern with specific company names and POI names directly to the FAA. Those businesses have no business being in business, and those POIs need to be shown the door.
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Again, this approach is only going to get somewhere once a G-V crashes into a shopping mall and kills 50 people. THEN you could publish said list of operators/ POI's (both publicly via the media and directly to the FAA). THEN some of this might change. Until then, it's business as usual.
 
Talked with our CP about it, and actually cleared the situation up pretty easily as to when I am on duty and not on duty.
 
Inverted said:
Well I can tell you that the way you guys do it is against the FARs. You cannot be on call 24/7, being on call is duty. Unfortunately this is how most 135 operators work. 24 hour on call is that unwritten rule of 135 charter. Management likes to cal it a grey area which is completely incorrect. If you read the regs it makes it very clear. The company I work for has us start duty at 10am, and ends at 10pm when we are on rotation. We get a minimum of 10 scheduled days off a month, then when it comes to either fly, or be on duty, we have a set duty period. I really don't know what to say other than to express your concerns about taking time off/vacation and see what he says.
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Being on call is NOT on duty. Being on call isn't on rest though. It's a rest issue, not a duty issue.
 
cencal83406 said:
It may be time as an industry to escalate this concern with specific company names and POI names directly to the FAA. Those businesses have no business being in business, and those POIs need to be shown the door.
Click to expand...
I agree with this. At the very least an example needs to be made.
 
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