Time logging with CFI passenger

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OldTownPilot

Well-Known Member
Say a PPL rated pilot gives a ride to a CFI rated pilot to another airport to pick up his plane.

The costs can be split. Correct?

Can the PPL pilot log PIC? (assuming no instruction in given, and the CFI does not log it)

The second one was the question I was wondering about more.
 
I would think that if you're not logging the time for hours counted towards a certificate or rating, he is just like any other pilot and you can split the cost.

Keep in mind I have no idea what I'm talking about.:insane:
 
Basicly what happened was that he diverted to BGR the night before and was going to bring his plane back to BHB. The pilot in question was going back home to BGR anyway.
 
The costs can be split. Absolutely no problem with that. Whether the other passenger is a pilot or not or if you were logging the time towards a certificate or rating is irrelevant.

If you were pilot in command and/or sole manipulator of the controls, then go ahead and log the time.
 
If you are appropriately rated in the aircraft and/or the sole manipulator, you can log PIC. It doesn't matter if the CFI logs dual given or not.
 
If the CFI logs dual given then you must log dual recieved which is not PIC, the CFI is PIC.

PIC stands for Pilot in Command, not Pilots in Command.

The pilot in question loged the flight as PIC, under the assumption that the passenger happend to be a CFI. They had only met about 1 hour before the flight started.
 
OldTownPilot said:
If the CFI logs dual given then you must log dual recieved which is not PIC, the CFI is PIC.

PIC stands for Pilot in Command, not Pilots in Command.

The pilot in question loged the flight as PIC, under the assumption that the passenger happend to be a CFI. They had only met about 1 hour before the flight started.
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Not sure I understand what you mean. Whether or not I have a CFI in the plane with me, instructing or not, I can and am suppose to log it as PIC. When my commercial instructor is in the plane with me, he logs it as dual given and I log it as dual received and PIC.
 
OldTownPilot said:
If the CFI logs dual given then you must log dual recieved which is not PIC, the CFI is PIC.

PIC stands for Pilot in Command, not Pilots in Command.
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Nonsense. You can log PIC & Dual Received at the same time, and the CFI can definately log the same time as PIC.
 
OldTownPilot said:
Say a PPL rated pilot gives a ride to a CFI rated pilot to another airport to pick up his plane.

The costs can be split. Correct?
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No. Not technically. The purpose of the flight is to pick up the CFI's airplane. That's the CFI's reason for the flight, not yours. Sharing costs also requires sharing purpose under a =very= long line of FAA Legal opinions and NTSB cases.

Can the PPL pilot log PIC?
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Of course. If you are a PPL you may log as PIC any time spent as sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for. Who the passenger is and whether he gives instruction or not makes no difference at all.
 
Of course you can split the costs.
"61.113 Private pilot privileges & limitations: pilot in command
(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, privided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."
In other words, you can split the costs with any passenger(s). Some of the other responses are getting confused about the rule for flying for compensation or hire.


And also, of course you can log PIC. You're the pilot, right? You're rated, right? Log it - who cares what your passenger is?
 
You definetly can log PIC and Dual received at the same time. You'll do this throughout the course of your intrument rating.
 
BigN said:
Of course you can split the costs.
"61.113 Private pilot privileges & limitations: pilot in command
(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."
In other words, you can split the costs with any passenger(s). Some of the other responses are getting confused about the rule for flying for compensation or hire.
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Unfortunately, the FAA's long-standing "shared cost requires shared purpose" interpretation for 61.113(c) doesn't get taught at the private pilot level much. But it's definitely there. You can =not= fly people around on their own business just because you pay part (or even most) of the costs.
was going back home to BGR anyway.
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I missed that the first time through. The language of the Legal interpretations and NTSB cases tend to use shared "purpose" but there is enough in them to suggest that a shared location works (what is now 61.113(c) used to be 61.118(b)):

==============================
From a 1985 FAA Legal opinion: Additionally, the FAA has interpreted 61.118(b) so that the only allowable share-the-costs operations are those which are bona fide, that is, joint ventures for a common purpose with the expenses being defrayed by all passengers and the pilot. Nor does Section 61.118 permit pilots who want to build up time toward their commercial pilot certificates to carry expense sharing passengers to a destination at which they have no particular business.
==============================
 
I guess I overstated it a bit by saying that he could share expenses with any passenger, but I did not miss that he was going that way anyways. Plus, the FAA's decisions have been aimed at people with a business or commercial purpose. It sounded to me like a personal issue of the CFI rated pilot needing simple transportation to get back to his own airplane. Wouldn't be any different than if the pilot in question had been driving toward BGR and picked up the pilot to give him a lift.

I am aware that people have tried to bend the rules to do commercial operations with only a PPL and thus the FAA has expanded the law beyond what it says. But OldTownPilot did not ask if he could haul a TV crew along to a business convention - he's just helping a guy get back to his airplane.
 
BigN said:
I am aware that people have tried to bend the rules to do commercial operations with only a PPL and thus the FAA has expanded the law beyond what it says. But OldTownPilot did not ask if he could haul a TV crew along to a business convention - he's just helping a guy get back to his airplane.
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You're right. On two counts. First, the FAA probably wouldn't care about it. Second, the FAA probably wouldn't care about it.

But it still unfortunately fits the FAA's approach to what is technically against the regs.

My "favorite" NTSB decision on the issue is the one about the good Samaritan who got nailed for transporting his friend's father to the hospital (yes, there was more to it than just that).

My "favorite" Legal opinion on the subject is tied between the one that says you can't fly a political candidate around for a share of expenses and the first Angel Flight one that required commercial pilots and a 135 operating certificate even though the only compensation was the pilot's tax deduction for the direct costs of the flight (the Angel Flight one was reversed, but on policy, not regulatory. grounds.

It's about knowing what the rules are and then deciding if it's really anythng to worry about. That's a personal decision.
 
OldTownPilot said:
If the CFI logs dual given then you must log dual recieved which is not PIC, the CFI is PIC.

PIC stands for Pilot in Command, not Pilots in Command.

The pilot in question loged the flight as PIC, under the assumption that the passenger happend to be a CFI. They had only met about 1 hour before the flight started.
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If you hold the certificate, you are PIC (unless it's HP or complex and you don't have the signoff). Don't worry about the CFI's logbook....that is his business.
 
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