Thoughts on evacuation

[CaptBill]

I have been reading about several recent evacuations with JetBlue and others. I have been flying 121 for 25 years now and have NEVER had an evacuation or anything close to one. Lots of mechanical issues but nothing I would ever consider evacuating for. I've been thinking about the circumstances that would necessitate me making that call and thought I would throw it out there and get your ideas. A fire onboard seems obvious but what else would cause you to make that decision?

When does it make more sense to keep the pax onboard vs the risks associated with doors and slides?

 

[jtrain609]

At the last shop, running out of halon bottles on engines or apu was a mandatory evacuation. The idea was that if you had no ability to fight the fire, then you have no business having people on the aircraft.

Current shop wants you to evaluate the fire. Blew the bottles but it went out? Go to the gate. Blew the bottles and you can't keep it under control? Get off the plane.

Otherwise? Cabin or cargo bin fire. Otherwise, even if the airplane can't be moved on the runway, I'm not sure it's prudent to toss everyone off unless there is a pressing need to do so.

 

[CaptBill]

Otherwise, even if the airplane can't be moved on the runway, I'm not sure it's prudent to toss everyone off unless there is a pressing need to do so.

I agree, but you see a lot of evacuations with no smoke or fire. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm missing something.

 

[derg]

I generally think about any sort of unidentifiable actual fire onboard (with caveats!) or loss of structural integrity of the aircraft (nosegear collapse).

My fear is that if we have a cargo fire indication, but if the temps are relatively normal, if I do an evacuation all it's going to do is put more people in danger of getting run't over taking selfies as the fire department pierces the bin to confirm. But then I have the luxury of knowing the compartment temperature.

I don't know, just stream of consciousness writing here, but an evacuation is a GUARANTEE of having injuries so it kind of just "depends" on the circumstances. Indentifiable fire that we weren't able to quench, we're probably jumping out.

 

[derg]

I agree, but you see a lot of evacuations with no smoke or fire. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm missing something.

Might be the cabin crew as well.

We have two different "colors". One "color" and it's "prepare for a potential evac, wait for my command" and the other "color" is "We're pooping our pants up front, if you don't hear from us, jump up jump up and get down".

Does the 737NG have a depiction of doors, slides and armed status?

 

[CaptBill]

The interesting thing about making this decision is it's undefined criteria unlike a rejected takeoff decision which has pretty defined go, no-go parameters. It really is an "evaluate the moment" type of thing. Which begs the question: Are you always ready and awake enough to make a good call? There are times when I'm distracted or tired that I really wouldn't want that situation dumped in my lap. And you know, it will happen when you least expect it.

 

[CaptBill]

Does the 737NG have a depiction of doors, slides and armed status?

Nope. Just an over-wing lite that tells you the overwing door(s) have been opened and a main door lite for entry doors. By then it's too late, they're bailing out....

 

[derg]

Ahh.

I don't have my QRH handy as the wife's @Seggy -ing in the home office (vacuuming) but there is, i think, a good section on evacuation and post reject condiserations in there. I'll have to take a peek.

 

[typhoonpilot]

The old airline training paradigm kicks in a lot here I think. What did we train for decades in the simulator? Basically an inextinguishable engine fire or APU fire followed by an evacuation after a rejected takeoff or an airborne cargo/engine/apu fire with a landing and then subsequent evacuation. In any event, something that required an evacuation without much of a thought process. Not sure if that has changed in the last decade or so that I've been away from the U.S. majors.

As a result, what are most airline pilots spring wired to do? Basically, in training, all they've ever done is stop on the runway and then evacuate so when something happens in real life training kicks in and that's exactly what they do.

Do any U.S. majors teach making radio contact with the fire marshall/services or with the cabin crew to ascertain the situation as part of the decision process leading up to an evacuation?

Do any teach turning the airplane into the wind so that an engine fire and it's smoke is not potentially blowing into or over the fuselage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airtours_Flight_28M

No doubt it can be a tough call. Yes, if you command an evacuation people are going to get hurt. But if it is a serious problem that requires an immediate evacuation, which gets delayed, then many people could die. Every situation is unique so, in my opinion, the decision making process should be well thought out in advance.

At my old airline we had emergency evacuation and then precautionary disembarkation, which could use slides if necessary. The precautionary disembarkation was something that could be used for a situation where the crew might want to get the passengers off quickly but not in a full blown evacuation. Specifically mentioned was bomb threat where the bomb had not actually been located, if it indeed existed at all.

You'd hate to be the guy who hesitated on an evacuation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudia_Flight_163

But nor do you want to be the guy who evacuates when it isn't necessary:

The recent Alitalia 767 return and evac that we discussed.




Typhoonpilot

 

[Screaming_Emu]

At the last shop, running out of halon bottles on engines or apu was a mandatory evacuation. The idea was that if you had no ability to fight the fire, then you have no business having people on the aircraft.

Current shop wants you to evaluate the fire. Blew the bottles but it went out? Go to the gate. Blew the bottles and you can't keep it under control? Get off the plane.

Otherwise? Cabin or cargo bin fire. Otherwise, even if the airplane can't be moved on the runway, I'm not sure it's prudent to toss everyone off unless there is a pressing need to do so.

I wonder if the availability of slides has anything to do with the differences. You can evac an ERJ without probably hurting someone, but as soon as slides come out, people are gone get busted up.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

If I had an aircraft with smoke like the JetBlue pictures, I think I would evacuate on the runway like they did. I worry about all the and adhesives lighting up and creating a cabin fire. Also the passengers don't have the goggles/masks we do in front.

 

[CaptBill]

Fascinating articles Typhoonpilot. They definitely added food for thought on this issue. What I took away from them is this: If you are going to make the decision to evacuate, do it quickly and don't wallow in indecision. The wind thing I had never really thought much about, until now.

 

[BobDDuck]

The old airline training paradigm kicks in a lot here I think. What did we train for decades in the simulator? Basically an inextinguishable engine fire or APU fire followed by an evacuation after a rejected takeoff or an airborne cargo/engine/apu fire with a landing and then subsequent evacuation. In any event, something that required an evacuation without much of a thought process. Not sure if that has changed in the last decade or so that I've been away from the U.S. majors.

The thing about training that I found interesting was that, in ever sim I've been in anyway, we train the evacuation through actually running the checklist. You hit the last item, the sim goes dark and the instructor says "ok, good job. Let's go debrief now". Several years ago, as part of Captain Charm School, we listened to a CVR from an incident that the airline had had, that eventually led to an evacuation. The amount of confusion about "what next" AFTER they got a handle on what had happened was so clear that I started to entirely rethink the process.

Do any U.S. majors teach making radio contact with the fire marshall/services or with the cabin crew to ascertain the situation as part of the decision process leading up to an evacuation?

Do any teach turning the airplane into the wind so that an engine fire and it's smoke is not potentially blowing into or over the fuselage:

Where I am now, teaches to configure for an evac any time you come to a stop on the runway (post RTO or emergency landing). Basically just getting the flaps to 25, disarming the spoilers, getting the emergency lights on and checking that the cabin is depressurized. At that point we are supposed to split, the captain talks to the back to check on the cabin and the FO checks with ATC or ARFF to see what the oustide looks like. Then we are supposed to come back together and make a decision on what to do. I never really gave much thought about positioning the aircraft for smoke. I'd think access from the fire trucks would be more important, although if you are going to pop the doors it would be a lot easier if there wasn't a huge plume of smoke going by.

And as far as the OP... Reasons to bail out other than fire. Bomb. Fire on an airplane next to you or a massive fuel spill coming towards you and you aren't under power.

 

[scooter2525]

The thing about training that I found interesting was that, in ever sim I've been in anyway, we train the evacuation through actually running the checklist. You hit the last item, the sim goes dark and the instructor says "ok, good job. Let's go debrief now". Several years ago, as part of Captain Charm School, we listened to a CVR from an incident that the airline had had, that eventually led to an evacuation. The amount of confusion about "what next" AFTER they got a handle on what had happened was so clear that I started to entirely rethink the process.

During a recurrent sim a few years back, I had a sim instructor that took it past the "run the checklist" and call it good. He wanted me to grab a flashlight because he killed all the lights, help evacuate those in the back and asses the situation beyond what the CL said. It was very eye opening to go beyond what the CL said and think about after.

 

[CFIscare]

I don't always evacuate, but when I do, I make sure to grab two cans of beer on the way out.

 

[amorris311]

During a recurrent sim a few years back, I had a sim instructor that took it past the "run the checklist" and call it good. He wanted me to grab a flashlight because he killed all the lights, help evacuate those in the back and asses the situation beyond what the CL said. It was very eye opening to go beyond what the CL said and think about after.

That is a very good instructor. As @typhoonpilot alluded to earlier, we all revert back to training. I just finished a recurrent simulator session and we did as most seem to do while in the box. We ran the checklist sim went dark for a nanosecond then the lights came on. I guess I have been doing this awhile now because I almost automatically just sit back in my chair and wait to hear what the instructor had to say.

This is a good thread. Lots of new things to think about when time matters and decisions need to be made at 100%.

 

[CFIscare]

During my last recurrent, I was paired with a very senior captain. The last item on the agenda was an evacuation. We get a lav smoke on final, followed by a gear collapse on landing. As soon as the aircraft stops, the captain freaks out and immediately makes the evacuation PA, with both engines still running. Le sigh...slow down there cowboy.

I, however, was tempted to go max power to suck up any phones that people were taking selfies with. :stir:

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

My prior employer was pretty keen on getting everyone off the aircraft as quickly as possible if something happened. I don't know how much of that was an insurance and liability decision vs safety.

Lots of good reasons to hold off pointed out above (by people more experienced than me).

One scenario that scared me, imagine its 8pm at night your taking off of 36L at GFK and the #1 engine pops and catches fire just prior to V1. You abort, it appears the fire is out (light and aural warning is out) but there's a lot of smoke and your not 100% sure. Meanwhile, it's -40 out with the windchill (most people have they're coats packed away since the flight is headed to St Pete) with blowing snow and 3/4 vis.

Thoughts? How long would it take ARFF to get 150+ pax clear of the aircraft and back inside the terminal at that point?

 

[CFIscare]

My prior employer was pretty keen on getting everyone off the aircraft as quickly as possible if something happened. I don't know how much of that was an insurance and liability decision vs safety.

Lots of good reasons to hold off pointed out above (by people more experienced than me).

One scenario that scared me, imagine its 8pm at night your taking off of 36L at GFK and the #1 engine pops and catches fire just prior to V1. You abort, it appears the fire is out (light and aural warning is out) but there's a lot of smoke and your not 100% sure. Meanwhile, it's -40 out with the windchill (most people have they're coats packed away since the flight is headed to St Pete) with blowing snow and 3/4 vis.

Thoughts? How long would it take ARFF to get 150+ pax clear of the aircraft and back inside the terminal at that point?

Yeah, but what if you are at St. Maarten and everyone could walk to the beach???

 

[derg]

My prior employer was pretty keen on getting everyone off the aircraft as quickly as possible if something happened. I don't know how much of that was an insurance and liability decision vs safety.

Lots of good reasons to hold off pointed out above (by people more experienced than me).

One scenario that scared me, imagine its 8pm at night your taking off of 36L at GFK and the #1 engine pops and catches fire just prior to V1. You abort, it appears the fire is out (light and aural warning is out) but there's a lot of smoke and your not 100% sure. Meanwhile, it's -40 out with the windchill (most people have they're coats packed away since the flight is headed to St Pete) with blowing snow and 3/4 vis.

Thoughts? How long would it take ARFF to get 150+ pax clear of the aircraft and back inside the terminal at that point?

Probably a good question to pose to @MikeD and @Bumblebee as both have firefighting experience, but not specifically airport ARFF stuff I think.

However, one thing we talk about at SouthernJets is that many of the firetrucks have infrared so even though there's a lot of smoke, the fire, for the most part, may be out. But then you really have to be concerned with one of your flight attendants (potentially) jumping the gun and conducting an uncommanded evacuation or even a passenger doing so which, in this case, it's imperative that you communicate to the back of the aircraft clearly and succinctly.

Especially in the case like the Delta flight down in PNS. When the engine blew, it cut off ALL communication and the cockpit literally had no idea they had anything other than a basic engine chugging itself and there was a flight attendant initiated evacuation.

I think the most important thing to remember in any event is that there are a crap-ton of people back there that are nervous, scared, paranoid and you've got to talk about who is going to do what during an emergency.

We use a "two in, two out" thing where we ask ourselves "Did we talk to the flight attendants, the passengers" (two in) and "ATC and the company (time permitting)" (two out).