This might be a stupid question..

scramjet

scramjet

Well-Known Member
but do First Officers ever log PIC time or is it always SIC even when they're the flying pilot? How about relief pilots on international flights when the captain is not on station? Just curious as I've reached the review on the FARs and Pilot In Command logging in my private pilot ground school and I notice that as defined by the FARs, the Pilot in Command is given what one might consider the captain's responsibilities over the aircraft. My materials were unclear as to whether there is a separation between an "aircraft commander" and a "pilot in command." My theory is that, for purposes of aircraft operation, the Captain is the aircraft's sole PIC regardless of who is manipulating the controls, but other crew members may log PIC time as long as they can justify it with the FARs and other applicable guidelines. Is this correct? For purposes of overall command structure, is there a distinction between commander (captain) and pilot in command?

Thanks. :)
 
First Officer's always log it as SIC. No matter who is at the controls. You can log it anyway you like, but good luck explaining that to the interview team at the next interview. It doesn't matter what scenario you might come up with, SIC is SIC. PIC is PIC. End of story.
 
Well, even though Doug doesn't need anymore PIC time, nor TT for that matter since he is golden now, what stops him from logging PIC on his legs of a 767 trip? He has a PIC type rating on it therefore when he is the FP he should be able to log it PIC. Whether or not he does it is up to him.
 
Pilotdude3407 said:
Well, even though Doug doesn't need anymore PIC time, nor TT for that matter since he is golden now, what stops him from logging PIC on his legs of a 767 trip? He has a PIC type rating on it therefore when he is the FP he should be able to log it PIC. Whether or not he does it is up to him.
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But doesnt the person who signs for the aircraft log the PIC time?
 
correction. i'm the only one who asks stupid questions. stop trying to steal my thunda'.
:nana2: :nana2: :nana2:
:nana2: :nana2:
:nana2:
 
Unless you are THE CA for the flight, you are NOT the PIC.

You can log the landings you do (of course) but you may not log the time as PIC, unless you are the CA of that flight.
 
The person that signs for the aircraft is also the same person designated on a dispatch release as PIC. Even if the person sitting in the right seat has a type rating in said aircraft - he has not signed for it nor is he designated on the release as PIC. That person will log SIC time whether manipulating the controls or not - just as the PIC will log PIC time whether manipulating the controls or not.

Hope this helps.


Max
 
Mr.Maximus said:
The person that signs for the aircraft is also the same person designated on a dispatch release as PIC. Even if the person sitting in the right seat has a type rating in said aircraft - he has not signed for it nor is he designated on the release as PIC. That person will log SIC time whether manipulating the controls or not - just as the PIC will log PIC time whether manipulating the controls or not.

Hope this helps.


Max
Click to expand...

Ok, I am not looking for a fight but I am trying to understand this....

FAR (61)

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

There is nothing about who signed for the airplane....If you hold an ATP certificate and a type rating then you qualify for the above statement. Also, if the CA leaves the flightdeck on international flight he is no longer ACTING as PIC but the relief pilot is. Your thoughts please.
 
Pilotdude3407 said:
FAR (61)

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

There is nothing about who signed for the airplane....If you hold an ATP certificate and a type rating then you qualify for the above statement. Also, if the CA leaves the flightdeck on international flight he is no longer ACTING as PIC but the relief pilot is. Your thoughts please.
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Focus on the words..

Acting as pilot-in-command..

During a flight, you do not swap "command authority."

Acting as pilot in command means, the guy who is that which will be acting as pilot in command of the flight..

Before the flight leaves, there is a pilot acting as pilot in command..

"Acting as pilot in command" does not mean holding the controls..
 
TITLE 14--AERONAUTICSAND SPACE

CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
(CONTINUED)

PART 121--OPERATING REQUIREMENTS: DOMESTIC, FLAG, AND SUPPLEMENTAL
OPERATIONS--Table of Contents

Subpart M--Airman and Crewmember Requirements

Sec. 121.385 Composition of flight crew.

(a) No certificate holder may operate an airplane with less than the
minimum flight crew in the airworthiness certificate or the airplane
Flight Manual approved for that type airplane and required by this part
for the kind of operation being conducted.
(b) In any case in which this part requires the performance of two
or more functions for which an airman certificate is necessary, that
requirement is not satisfied by the performance of multiple functions at
the same time by one airman.
(c) The minimum pilot crew is two pilots and the certificate holder
shall designate one pilot as pilot in command and the other second in
command.

[Doc. No. 6258, 29 FR 19212, Dec. 31, 1964, as amended by Amdt. 121-178,
47 FR 13316, Mar. 29, 1982; Amdt. 121-256, 61 FR 30434, June 14, 1996]
 
Ok fair enough...Since in 61 the rules say for recreational,private, and commercial the PIC is the sole manipulator and a couple of other things and the the section I quoted above only said acting as PIC in conjunction with the below highlighted rule from FAR121, I am inclined to agree now. Thanks for your help.

(c) The minimum pilot crew is two pilots and the certificate holder shall designate one pilot as pilot in command and the other second in command.
 
Ahh...actually it was a VERY good question. Here is why...and it has been happening to some folks out there. More on this a minute...

Scenario - you are hired at XYZ Airline with very low hours. i.e. you are not even CLOSE to FAA ATP minimums. With me so far? Good. So, you stay with XYZ Airline until you have the required total time and go to upgrade. Great!

But hold on there kiddo...you waltz into your checkride ready to go, but the DE upon reviewing your 8710 says, "you are not qualified to be a Captain with XYZ Airlines". Uh-oh!! Big embarrassment, six weeks of ground school and sim wasted right? Wrong! Because good ol' bike21 is gonna save your day right now.

Here is what you do.

The requirement people seem to be getting tripped up on is the night PIC and cross country requirement as PIC. (25 hours and 100 hours) What you need to do as SIC before the flight, is agree with your Captain that you will be ACTING as PIC for this leg and will be essentially making all the decisions. You then keep a separate log of when these legs occurred so you can later prove to the FAA that you are indeed ready for the ATP checkride.

Here is the section out of the FARs...

250 hr. of flight time as PIC of an airplane, or as SIC performing the duties and functions of a PIC under the supervision of a PIC, or by any combination of the two. This requirement must include

1. 100 hr. of cross-country time
2. 25 hr. of night flight time

NOTE: Not more than 100 hr. of the total aeronautical experience requirements may be obtained in a flight simulator or a flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the experience was obtained in a course conducted under FAR Part 142.
Click to expand...

Basically just make sure you meet the mins! If you hardly instruct (CFIs quit complaining that you HAD to instruct for six months, oh so agonizing...ok that is another for another thread) and get hired with low hours i.e. 300-500 hours, use caution!

****disclaimers****
#1 No this wasn't me, cause I already had ATP mins before I got hired on :)
#2 I cannot tell you exactly where I got this information. But it is happening.
 
Yeah that was a misconception I had was that the FO or Cruise Officer could log PIC as long as (s)he was appropriately rated and experienced. It makes sense that's not the case.

So what would a relief pilot station watch officer and relief copilot station watch officer log? SIC and Third in Command?
 
I understand the whole 121 PIC/SIC thing and how grey the part 91 SIC is in a King Air or any single pilot airplane. My question is about the "sole manipulator of the controls" the FAR's state. If I get a BFR with a CFI and I am the sole manipulator of the controls, can I log it as PIC time? Can he log it as PIC at the same time?
This is what I hate about the FAR's, it take a crappin' attorney to interpret these things in court when the crap hits the fan.
 
Ok looking at the FARs closer, I notice that there can only be one SIC as well. So how is relief pilot time logged? Just "relief pilot" time? How is that entered into a logbook? I should look more closely at the columns in my logbook. Maybe First Mate Taylor can chime in on this one since he does international 767 ops...
 
Freightdog1 said:
I understand the whole 121 PIC/SIC thing and how grey the part 91 SIC is in a King Air or any single pilot airplane. My question is about the "sole manipulator of the controls" the FAR's state. If I get a BFR with a CFI and I am the sole manipulator of the controls, can I log it as PIC time? Can he log it as PIC at the same time?
This is what I hate about the FAR's, it take a crappin' attorney to interpret these things in court when the crap hits the fan.
Click to expand...

If you are current within your Bi-Annual than yes you can log the PIC time. There really is 2 types of PIC time within the FARs: PIC when "sole manipulator of the controls" and also PIC when you are "acting as pilot in command".

A student that is rated for the aircraft will get PIC time because he is actually flying the airplane, a CFI will also log PIC because he is "acting as PIC", or in other words, if something were to go wrong he would be taking control of the airplane and be the one to decide what the outcome of the flight would be. It is essentially the way a pilot is able to log PIC when flying with a safety pilot. The pilot "under the hood" is PIC because he is "manipulating the controls" but the safety pilot is PIC because if something were to happen, such as a potential traffic collision, he would be taking control of the airplane because he is "acting as PIC".

Do a search for this stuff in the "CFI Corner", we talk about things like this all the time.
 
Sec. 121.543 Flight crewmembers at controls.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, each
required flight crewmember on flight deck duty must remain at the
assigned duty station with seat belt fastened while the aircraft is
taking off or landing, and while it is en route.
(b) A required flight crewmember may leave the assigned duty
station--
(1) If the crewmember's absence is necessary for the performance of
duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft;
(2) If the crewmember's absence is in connection with physiological
needs; or
(3) If the crewmember is taking a rest period, and relief is
provided--
(i) In the case of the assigned pilot in command during the en route
cruise portion of the flight, by a pilot who holds an airline transport
pilot certificate and an appropriate type rating, is currently qualified
as pilot in command or second in command, and is qualified as pilot in
command of that aircraft during the en route cruise portion of the
flight. A second in command qualified to act as a pilot in command en
route need not have completed the following pilot in command
requirements: The 6-month recurrent flight training required by
Sec. 121.433(c)(1)(iii); the operating experience required by
Sec. 121.434; the takeoffs and landings required by Sec. 121.439; the
line check required by Sec. 121.440; and the 6-month proficiency check
or simulator training required by Sec. 121.441(a)(1); and
(ii) In the case of the assigned second in command, by a pilot
qualified to act as second in command of that aircraft during en route
operations. However, the relief pilot need not meet the recent
experience requirements of Sec. 121.439(b).
Click to expand...
That seems to indicate the cruise relief can log PIC but is not the PIC for purposes of the overall flight. ??? This is like interpreting the Constitution or the Bible:laff:
 
Pilotdude3407 said:
He has a PIC type rating on it therefore when he is the FP he should be able to log it PIC.
Click to expand...

Yes, the sole manipulator can always log the time as PIC if he has the appropriate type rating. Part 121/135/91, etc, is irrelevant, because Part 61 applies to everyone.

However, that sort of PIC time is probably useless to you in your career once you reach the Part 121 stage. Others advise you not to log it as such and some airlines specifically ask you to exclude such time from your PIC totals.
 
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