This just in, Good NEWS!!

Well I hope you're right but I don't see it.

The Pickle has been going on and on about this on the pipe without citing anything as a reference. You got any examples from your pairings that would be modified under the new rules?

Because in large part, the trips that I'm flying won't be changing. The problem isn't so much pairing construction, it's when we get a 2 hour delay thrown in somewhere and we go from a manageable 10 hour overnight to reduced rest.
 
The Pickle has been going on and on about this on the pipe without citing anything as a reference. You got any examples from your pairings that would be modified under the new rules?

Because in large part, the trips that I'm flying won't be changing. The problem isn't so much pairing construction, it's when we get a 2 hour delay thrown in somewhere and we go from a manageable 10 hour overnight to reduced rest.

Kind of my point. Domestically our trips pretty much won't change. I'm really worried about the international crew augmentation that if changed will create a staffing surplus because it could allow more 2 crew intl ops. Our union keeps reminding us that our contract protects us from the potential changes but all we really did was give the company a bargaining chip against a provision we already have. The AMR bankrupcy will certainly change their intl rules which will not help. I just don't want to be put in a position where the union gives up negotiating capital to keep a provision we already have.

Staffing aside, I think there will be positives for safety especially for regional guys. Long overdue. However, I'm kind of a work my tail off and go home kind of guy. I just get a bad feeling about this one.
 
I feel the same way. When I'm at work, I want to work.

But that means work, and not do scheduled 5 hour and 29 minute sits in a hub (yeah, that actually happened on a pairing a few weeks ago). Over here we're worried about this because our schedules aren't dictated by us, they're dictated by the mainline partner. That may be true, but schedules are going to be changing across the board because of this rule, and I think we'll see those scheduling changes happen to what we're given also.

Regarding international ops with you guys, that's certainly a valid point, but I think we're all going to be spending some time in contract talks on issues that we already have locked in right now. Over here, we're going to have to do something to get our credit time up, and that's going to mean spending even more on a DPM or an actual rig system.
 
This is awesome news! 10 hours of "rest". and 30 hours required every 7 days. I dont get how anyone could think this is bad, I know personally i cant think without at least 6-7 hours of deep sleep. plus this means airlines will be able to bring on more pilots to cover the duty.
 
I can see where Boris is coming from (which is odd considering how far out in left field he is sometimes :) ). For a lot of operators (like Delta) they already had things like 8 hours behind the door at a hotel or a higher limit on min overnights. For the majors, I don't see things changing a whole lot other than schedules being adjusted a bit for some show/release times that may affect duty limits. There's a carve out for FedEx and other cargo only operators, so they have to "opt in" to the new rules for them to be affected. There's a provision to go around the "circadian low" as long as there is proper rest between FDPs. If you're doing high speeds, that's there during the day. Probably the same with red eyes at places like jetBlue or Delta. What actually HELPS the majors is the flight time increase to 9 hours during the day with appropriate show and release times. This allows some to do trans-con turns where they would have been over the 8 hour limit before.

For the most part, this is gonna seriously shake up the regional airlines. I'd say every one of my trips this month would have been illegal under these rules for one reason or another. Either my show was so early and I flew so many legs I should have only been on a 10 hour duty day or I busted the 60 hour duty in a week limit. They're either going to have to hire a ton of people because the 4 days followed by 2 days are 2-3 leg days with 20 hours in a hotel or the 4 day followed by the 2 day schedule will go away. Another plus is the long sits in the airport that John mentioned earlier will become less likely since the clock will be ticking on duty times.
 
So we finally get new rules that have needed overhaul for years and all you can think of is your disappointment in more RJ jobs?

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Well, that's the thing, I'm not convinced that they're the rules that we need. I'd love to be wrong. It doesn't really sound like anyone is quite sure how this is all going to shake out, yet.
 
From what I have been able to gather from the rules my fears will be vindicated. Yes, the regionals will have to hire more pilots for the same volume. But they will also have to reduce days off for line holders right down to contract minimums to get more productivity out of the pilot groups in order to cover their schedules. That will make the cumulative fatigue rules woefully inadequate. 30 Hrs off after 5 or 6 days of duty such as our contract allows is NOT ENOUGH by a long shot. Say goodbye to 4+ scheduled days off in a row! And 15 days lines....I suggest everyone get very familiar with your contract limits if you have one as your schedules will be pushed right up to them now.

Anyone know when all this goes into effect?
 
From what I have been able to gather from the rules my fears will be vindicated. Yes, the regionals will have to hire more pilots for the same volume. But they will also have to reduce days off for line holders right down to contract minimums to get more productivity out of the pilot groups in order to cover their schedules. That will make the cumulative fatigue rules woefully inadequate. 30 Hrs off after 5 or 6 days of duty such as our contract allows is NOT ENOUGH by a long shot. Say goodbye to 4+ scheduled days off in a row! And 15 days lines....I suggest everyone get very familiar with your contract limits if you have one as your schedules will be pushed right up to them now.

Anyone know when all this goes into effect?

2 years from today.

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2 years huh..Excellent, plenty of time for me to get the heck out of 121 aviation before I loose it and wind up in a bell tower with a high powered rifle located near a regional carrier's home office near you!...(Disclaimer - No I'm not actually that looney..Just very frustrated.)
 
2 years huh..Excellent, plenty of time for me to get the heck out of 121 aviation before I loose it and wind up in a bell tower with a high powered rifle located near a regional carrier's home office near you!...(Disclaimer - No I'm not actually that looney..Just very frustrated.)

WORD
 
Yeah, this is horrible.

*sigh*

Don't know how other companies are operating, but lineholders at my company have been - largely - working contract minimum days off anyway...however, the pairings have been such garbage (re: The Company builds the pairings).

Four day trip with 23-24 hours of credit. Two of the three overnights are already scheduled below 9 hours, if not even 8 hours and 3 minutes for legal sake. One operational hic-cup and you're down to minimum rest anyway - delaying the next OPERATIONAL DAY due to our crew planner's sole desire to maximize COST SAVINGS over PRODUCTIVITY.

So, I'm sorry...

I'm sorry that we can't trust our employers to actually NOT schedule 8 hour minimum rest periods. Which, an accident we had in a Brasilia in Brunswick GA over a decade and a half ago, our scheduling practices (scheduled 8 hour overnights) were spotlighted by the NTSB as being counter-safe practices.

So, yeah...this is horrible. It's an improvement, or will be, to those of us already working at minimum days off contractually. But, I think all of us know it will be a far better improvement than just simply that. However, that would require us to be a bit more disingenuous than we currently are. Which really gets to what I was saying earlier.

One single rule (this) will not drastically change our landscape.

We also need to evaluate how our respective crew planners BUILD our pairings and lines. We also need to hold our contract writers accountable regarding scheduling, hours of service, deadhead, and travel expenses sections of our contracts.

Now, regardless of this FT/DT rule...nothing will stop the number of Age 65 retirees going out of Scottsdale, AZ to play golf in the next few years.

I don't recall so many of you folks upset about Delta's latest fleet rejuvenation - replacing high paying wide-body seats with narrow-body seats, surely at a reduction in pay.

The jobs will be there folks. However, crew augmentation is this century's crew complement. Once again, this gets back to your negotiators and speaking up and loudly about what it is that you and your fellow pilots desire.

Or...sit still and expect your folks to just guess about what is important to you.
 
So that's a no to the 135 side?
Nope, nadda, nothing. Complete wholesale •. There are numerous interps from the chief council stating that there is no difference in the FAA's view of duty 121 vs 135, yet this pile of garbage we have here says the complete opposite. Split shifts, really, SPLIT SHIFTS, come the FRACK ON!!
 
Well, that's the thing, I'm not convinced that they're the rules that we need. I'd love to be wrong. It doesn't really sound like anyone is quite sure how this is all going to shake out, yet.

Yea, I guess I agree on having to see how it shakes out. Unfortunately it will be all two years before we'll know since we know the regionals will wait until the last possible minute to implement.

I also agree that it could do away with 4 day followed by 2 off which my airline is notorious for doing. We'll see in time I guess...

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Nope, nadda, nothing. Complete wholesale ********. There are numerous interps from the chief council stating that there is no difference in the FAA's view of duty 121 vs 135, yet this pile of garbage we have here says the complete opposite. Split shifts, really, SPLIT SHIFTS, come the FRACK ON!!
+1

I can tell you I am a beat dog by Friday each week. Not sleeping more than 4 to 6 hours any given sitting gets old in a hurry.
 
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