This datalink stuff is hard!

fish314

fish314

Well-Known Member
So I'm in training to go back to the airplane I used to fly (KC-135) and they've changed all the avionics around (I left with Block 30, and now it's Block 40).

Anyhow, there's all this new datalink crap installed. Anyone know a quick and dirty guide to CP-DLC, ADS-A/ADS-C, RNP/RVSM, and ATS datalink? We go pretty much everywhere, so we need to know the requirements for every FIR in the world (or at least have a reference in flight where to look them up). It also seems like they all support different things, have different RNP requirements and different Datalink capabilities. Is there some great "simplifier" out there that I'm missing?

(Of course I haven't even had my first sim using this stuff yet, just classroom academics and computer-based training... it may get easier.)
 
It's really not all that cosmic, once you start working with it. The Flight Safety instructors I had in the sim were worthless, because they didn't have a clue how datalink worked either. "You'll learn that on the road". Anyway, I'm new to it as well, as we're in the process of converting from legacy C-5s to AMP. If you PM me your email address, I'll send over some source documents that I have on CPDLC, etc.
 
All you need to know is how to use the interfaces with datalink. In other words, the boxes which use it. In the old days, on the tracks, position reports were done manually over the HF. Now with datalink, you need to know how to set up the FMC to send automatic reports. It's not that hard really.
 
fish314 said:
So I'm in training to go back to the airplane I used to fly (KC-135) and they've changed all the avionics around (I left with Block 30, and now it's Block 40).

Anyhow, there's all this new datalink crap installed. Anyone know a quick and dirty guide to CP-DLC, ADS-A/ADS-C, RNP/RVSM, and ATS datalink? We go pretty much everywhere, so we need to know the requirements for every FIR in the world (or at least have a reference in flight where to look them up). It also seems like they all support different things, have different RNP requirements and different Datalink capabilities. Is there some great "simplifier" out there that I'm missing?

(Of course I haven't even had my first sim using this stuff yet, just classroom academics and computer-based training... it may get easier.)
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So you come back, only to find out there's no more water injection, no Nav, and the J-57s have been taken off? :D :D
 
Aw come on guys...it's so simple! Maybe you need a refresher course!
from "Fletch"..truthfully I have no idea what you guys are talking about but suspect it should be in some military forum.
 
MikeD said:
So you come back, only to find out there's no more water injection, no Nav, and the J-57s have been taken off? :D :D
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hahahahahahaha! That's the funniest thing I've heard all day, thanks Mike. :D I'm not that old, though (but my first 50 hours in the jet were with the nav- no water or J57's though.)

Anyways, it's not that bad, but they did change a lot of stuff. All kinds of FMS pages that don't go to the same places they used to go and things like that.

Thanks for the smile, though! That really did crack me up.
 
flyinawa said:
Aw come on guys...it's so simple! Maybe you need a refresher course!
from "Fletch"..truthfully I have no idea what you guys are talking about but suspect it should be in some military forum.
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Actually it's not a military thing. The airliners were the leading edge of all of this stuff, and the military has kind of begrudgingly bought into it 10-15 years later. I get the sense that it's something you use crossing the pond a lot more than when you're over land, though. But I could be wrong. I'm just learnin' it myself.
 
fish314 said:
hahahahahahaha! That's the funniest thing I've heard all day, thanks Mike. :D I'm not that old, though (but my first 50 hours in the jet were with the nav- no water or J57's though.)

Anyways, it's not that bad, but they did change a lot of stuff. All kinds of FMS pages that don't go to the same places they used to go and things like that.

Thanks for the smile, though! That really did crack me up.
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That's what I'm here for partner!
 
I just got back from a Westpac in a block 40, this afternoon. I'm not up to speed on it, but it looked pretty simple. Just a matter of knowing what pages to go to. I did notice that it didn't always work as advertised (that's AF integration for ya). But when it worked it reduced radio chatter. I also noticed that when you are on the comm page of the FMS, the remote tuning did not remote tune. The pilots were on their first trip OCONUS with the 40, so it was interesting.

PS if you have a problem with INU1, don't waste your time trying to troubleshoot the problem with power to the box. Power it down, reset the breaker and start over. 90 percent sure you will have positive results much sooner.
 
fish314 said:
Actually it's not a military thing. The airliners were the leading edge of all of this stuff, and the military has kind of begrudgingly bought into it 10-15 years later.
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I submitted my first 847 the other day. One thing I put was that my recommendation was standard practice at civilian operators. Our OGV had a fit about that, said "the Air Force couldn't care less about what everybody else does".

Yep, he's right. Although not related to the 847 I submitted--I still have to log off 2 NDBs a half, but the quickest way to get people's panties wrapped around the axle in the C-5 is to fly an approach in LNAV, even though you're still displaying the raw data. So then switch to NAV RAD and watch the plane bounce all over the place trying to track inbound on the TACAN. Geez, in LNAV is was so smooth! We're still not authorized to do GPS and/or overlay approaches. Why don't we get with the times?
 
germb747 said:
I submitted my first 847 the other day. One thing I put was that my recommendation was standard practice at civilian operators. Our OGV had a fit about that, said "the Air Force couldn't care less about what everybody else does".

Yep, he's right. Although not related to the 847 I submitted--I still have to log off 2 NDBs a half, but the quickest way to get people's panties wrapped around the axle in the C-5 is to fly an approach in LNAV, even though you're still displaying the raw data. So then switch to NAV RAD and watch the plane bounce all over the place trying to track inbound on the TACAN. Geez, in LNAV is was so smooth! We're still not authorized to do GPS and/or overlay approaches. Why don't we get with the times?
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Thats the AF for you.

Back in the day (at least in the Reserves......mid -90s), there was a cash reward given for every 847 issued when you found incorrect info in a particular T.O. I think it was like $50 per cleared 847. Kept guys in the books at least!

And also, didn't you know? OGV......where common sense takes a backseat.
 
germb747 said:
I submitted my first 847 the other day. One thing I put was that my recommendation was standard practice at civilian operators. Our OGV had a fit about that, said "the Air Force couldn't care less about what everybody else does".

Yep, he's right. Although not related to the 847 I submitted--I still have to log off 2 NDBs a half, but the quickest way to get people's panties wrapped around the axle in the C-5 is to fly an approach in LNAV, even though you're still displaying the raw data. So then switch to NAV RAD and watch the plane bounce all over the place trying to track inbound on the TACAN. Geez, in LNAV is was so smooth! We're still not authorized to do GPS and/or overlay approaches. Why don't we get with the times?
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I guess it was the pilot type? That is SOOOO surprising If he gives you too much crap, forward the 847 to me and I will get it straight to AMC and bypass all the other fools. Being a HQ guys does have it's perks. :)

MikeD said:
Thats the AF for you.

Back in the day (at least in the Reserves......mid -90s), there was a cash reward given for every 847 issued when you found incorrect info in a particular T.O. I think it was like $50 per cleared 847. Kept guys in the books at least!

And also, didn't you know? OGV......where common sense takes a backseat.
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Dude...it's ridiculous man. I was sorting through some the APPROVED 847s that are awaiting flight manual change. There are some that are almost 5 years old. APPROVED I tell you....it is just SAD.
 
Thanks HeyEng,

I changed the few things that he wanted me to and resubmitted. We'll see where it goes from there. If it goes nowhere the I just might take you up on that, but I'd like to try the normal process first. Sort of feels like a waste of my time though, since you say there are 5 years of approved 847s sitting around. They must have been too busy with that botched Supp 22!
 
The easiest way to think about CPDLC and ADS is this:


CPDLC is a radio, it is used for communications with ATC.

ADS is radar, it is used by controllers as such for position information.

Some FIRs have both, some only have one or the other. Some use it to it's full capability (Brisbane and Melbourne) and some do not (Kolkata comes to mind).

Not sure what your interfaces are. In retrofitted airplanes it's probably not as intuitive as it is in the B777 and later model commercial airliners. That may be the most difficult part to learn. Otherwise it's pretty easy once you've used it a few times.




Typhoonpilot
 
typhoonpilot said:
The easiest way to think about CPDLC and ADS is this:


CPDLC is a radio, it is used for communications with ATC.

ADS is radar, it is used by controllers as such for position information.

Some FIRs have both, some only have one or the other. Some use it to it's full capability (Brisbane and Melbourne) and some do not (Kolkata comes to mind).

Not sure what your interfaces are. In retrofitted airplanes it's probably not as intuitive as it is in the B777 and later model commercial airliners. That may be the most difficult part to learn. Otherwise it's pretty easy once you've used it a few times.




Typhoonpilot
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Thanks, Typhoon. And everyone else who sent or offered to send me stuff. It's sort of making sense, but I think it'll get better after a few more sims and my first shot actually crossing the pond and putting it all to work.
 
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