This can't be legal-Free Flight Time

Champcar

Champcar

Well-Known Member
I received these e-mails this morning from the local flight school. This is not the first time these have been sent out and I am convinced this practice is not legal, flight time is considered compensation. Whats more surprising is there is a FSDO on the field and the owners are a previous Part 121 pilot and Chief Pilot for a 135 operations who should know better. I hate seeing PPL's being taken advantage of like this, unless the local FSDO has said it's fine. The fact they are charging customers and not paying the pilots is what really bothers me. I censored some of the e-mails just in case.


Good Morning,


We have free flying today for the first qualified response.

Your mission if you choose to accept it:

Fly N225** from *** to ABE - Allentown, PA - you need to be there by 4PM.

Pick up one passenger and bring him to *********, then return to ***.

Must be a private pilot or better and current and qualified in N225**.



Greetings,

And the winner is ******** - thank you very much -****. For those of you not familiar, one of the services we provide at the ********** Air Center is customer pick up and drop off. Customers bring in their aircraft to ******** for service and we return them back to their home base. Upon completion of the service we then go and collect them and bring them back to ******** to pick up their aircraft. Works well for the customer and we are happy to pass along some free flying to the folks at the ********** Air Center. The customer today is actually from Leesburg Virginia and he is picking up his V Tail Bonanza (Looks really nice by the way).
 
Champcar said:
I received these e-mails this morning from the local flight school. This is not the first time these have been sent out and I am convinced this practice is not legal, flight time is considered compensation. Whats more surprising is there is a FSDO on the field and the owners are a previous Part 121 pilot and Chief Pilot for a 135 operations who should know better. I hate seeing PPL's being taken advantage of like this, unless the local FSDO has said it's fine. The fact they are charging customers and not paying the pilots is what really bothers me. I censored some of the e-mails just in case.


Good Morning,


We have free flying today for the first qualified response.

Your mission if you choose to accept it:

Fly N225** from *** to ABE - Allentown, PA - you need to be there by 4PM.

Pick up one passenger and bring him to *********, then return to ***.

Must be a private pilot or better and current and qualified in N225**.



Greetings,

And the winner is ******** - thank you very much -****. For those of you not familiar, one of the services we provide at the ********** Air Center is customer pick up and drop off. Customers bring in their aircraft to ******** for service and we return them back to their home base. Upon completion of the service we then go and collect them and bring them back to ******** to pick up their aircraft. Works well for the customer and we are happy to pass along some free flying to the folks at the ********** Air Center. The customer today is actually from Leesburg Virginia and he is picking up his V Tail Bonanza (Looks really nice by the way).
Click to expand...
I have this problem now
 
I'll have to pay someone to pick me up and drop me off for my planes' annual.
I would like this service, myself- but don,t want to create problems.
I think they've considered no compensation for moving plane owners might be legal
 
Champcar said:
I received these e-mails this morning from the local flight school. This is not the first time these have been sent out and I am convinced this practice is not legal, flight time is considered compensation. Whats more surprising is there is a FSDO on the field and the owners are a previous Part 121 pilot and Chief Pilot for a 135 operations who should know better. I hate seeing PPL's being taken advantage of like this, unless the local FSDO has said it's fine. The fact they are charging customers and not paying the pilots is what really bothers me. I censored some of the e-mails just in case.


Good Morning,


We have free flying today for the first qualified response.

Your mission if you choose to accept it:

Fly N225** from *** to ABE - Allentown, PA - you need to be there by 4PM.

Pick up one passenger and bring him to *********, then return to ***.

Must be a private pilot or better and current and qualified in N225**.



Greetings,

And the winner is ******** - thank you very much -****. For those of you not familiar, one of the services we provide at the ********** Air Center is customer pick up and drop off. Customers bring in their aircraft to ******** for service and we return them back to their home base. Upon completion of the service we then go and collect them and bring them back to ******** to pick up their aircraft. Works well for the customer and we are happy to pass along some free flying to the folks at the ********** Air Center. The customer today is actually from Leesburg Virginia and he is picking up his V Tail Bonanza (Looks really nice by the way).
Click to expand...


I'm not sure I see what's illegal? All they are saying is go fly someone to/from a location and they are not paying you for this service. It's technically not a 'commercial' operation and a PPL can fly people to/from locations here.
 
We discussed this on the following thread:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/another-professional-integrity-scenario.199699/

The punchline came from the following link:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2005/kirwan - (2005) legal interpretation.pdf

The FAA apparently considers compensation to be anything of value. Very broad. Accordingly, it views flying for free as receiving compensation in the form of free flight time. And therefore not legal for PPLs.

Paradoxically, the professional pilot community considers ferrying an airplane to be a service, and therefore should be compensated.

The email you present from the company advertising "free flying" is infuriating. How can people be so stupid and uninformed?
 
I doubt they're charging the customers for the flight. Sure, it's probably wrapped up in the maintenance but I don't think they'd be that open about it if it could be challenged.

flyinguitar said:
The FAA apparently considers compensation to be anything of value. Very broad. Accordingly, it views flying for free as receiving compensation in the form of free flight time. And therefore not legal for PPLs.

Paradoxically, the professional pilot community considers ferrying an airplane to be a service, and therefore should be compensated.
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So, what if they charged $20 an hour? $.01 an hour? There's no minimum required. Or if flight time is seen as compensation, then couldn't the pilot's own time be the form of payment?

It's definitely skirting the rules, but I'd rather this stuff be out in the open so everyone know what's happening instead of hiding it. Even if it does get challenged, they'll use it for now and find another way if the FAA ever does anything. It seems like a grey area that may be used forever though.
 
I see it as taking advantage of private pilots who don't know any better and just want some more experience. It potentially puts them in a bad positions if there is an incident and the FAA starts investigating the legality of the flight.

I'm not an active pilot at the moment, its not about "I should get this flight because I have a commercial ticket." But nothing in aviation is free and there is no way they are offering this service to customers with out recouping the cost somewhere.

Question-If this is considered compensation then does a commercial ticket make you legal or must you have Part 135 mins? ( Its been so long since I looked at a FAR)
 
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I guess I am missing something? What is illegal or specifically what regulation is he breaking? - the guy owns the flight school and owns the maintenance company, he owns the planes and is just getting a customer a ride to collect his airplane after maintenance. Sounds like a pretty good businessman.
 
Champcar said:
Question-If this is considered compensation then does a commercial ticket make you legal or must you have Part 135 mins? ( Its been so long since I looked at a FAR)
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The exercise of pilot privileges is separate and distinct from acting as an air carrier.

Indeed, it's perfectly legal for me to offer Part 91 pilot service with my ATP or my commercial SEL privileges to fly an aircraft, for its owner and his invited guests, for compensation or hire. I happen to meet Part 135 minimums but that doesn't matter for the specific details I just outlined; all I need is a commercial.

Indeed, OP's scenario would likely be "okay" if they said commercial or better.
 
texas_pilot said:
I'll have to pay someone to pick me up and drop me off for my planes' annual.
I would like this service, myself- but don,t want to create problems.
I think they've considered no compensation for moving plane owners might be legal
Click to expand...

You can legally pay a commercial pilot to ferry an airplane from A to B without an operations certificate and you can rent an airplane at point B and fly it yourself back to point A with a passenger or instructor.
 
Even if it's not illegal, it's still a scumbag practice. Please report them to the feds. The FAA probably doesn't have the time to do anything about it since it's small potatoes, but there's always a chance that they'll get what's coming to them.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Even if it's not illegal, it's still a scumbag practice. Please report them to the feds. The FAA probably doesn't have the time to do anything about it since it's small potatoes, but there's always a chance that they'll get what's coming to them.
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Are you kidding?? There are guys down at the FSDO that get a hard on for this sort of thing!
 
I can't think of how this isn't common carriage. The pilot would not be doing the flight without the customer on board.
 
14 CFR §61.113(a).

*Drops mic*

Seriously, though. Common carriage? This isn't grey area, this isn't debatable, this isn't a question of whether the operation may possibly be legal under some limited circumstance, and this isn't open for debate.

It's illegal. The law is simple. "Compensation" and "hire" are words the FAA has specifically chosen to widely define. There is no reading of this in any way that makes it legal, and debating whether something is private carriage, common carriage... doesn't matter. "No person who holds a private pilot certificate may."

-Fox
 
If the customer that is being picked up is not being charged for the flight what is illegal about this?
The flight school owner is letting one of his customers use the plane as a type of reward for being a customer of the flight school.Pilots enjoy being able to fly with a purpose .
I think you guys are reading too much into this. Champcar if you have concerns why don't you just call the owner of the flight school since you know who he is.
 
Th
Banner Express said:
If the customer that is being picked up is not being charged for the flight what is illegal about this?
The flight school owner is letting one of his customers use the plane as a type of reward for being a customer of the flight school.Pilots enjoy being able to fly with a purpose .
I think you guys are reading too much into this. Champcar if you have concerns why don't you just call the owner of the flight school since you know who he is.
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There are two distinct things prohibited to private pilots by 61.113.

One is transporting a person or property for something of value given to anyone. That doesn't require the pilot to receive anything.

The other is transporting a person or property in exchange for something of value received by the pilot.

We can certainly argue the necessity or wisdom of either in specific situations (especially in what the FAA will consider to be "something of value) but there are way too many examples of both in the Chief Counsel opinions and NTSB decisions.
 
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