Thinking of going UND

Your schedule will be a hodge podge. Your flight labs will be just about anything you want, but consider that weather, mx, other issues will make commuting from Fargo a pain at best, a nightmare at worsed. The achilles heal of UNDs flight trainig is the short amount of time (a semester) that each flight lab is crammed into, given the weather and TCO (training course outline) limitations on what and when you can do things. All it takes is a couple of cancelled launches (for whatever reason) and you are way behind the eight ball.

It can be done, a little luck, proper planning ahead and a lot of flexibility from you and your instructors. Good luck. My "ties" to UND have payed off in spades but I do feel bad for you guys going through this now, what cost me 30k is costing you folks almost double.
 
I graduated from UND with a BBA in Aviation Management. I got hired at a regional airline shortly after. I would not recommend majoring in Commercial Aviation for all the obvious reasons - do I really need to explain? The degree is worthless if you decide that airline flying or commercial flying is not for you, or heaven forbid (it WILL happen) you get furloughed once or twice. Even my degree is almost worthless. If I had to do it all over again I would have not gone to UND. I would've gone to a university in my home state and done the flying on the side. It would have saved me a ton of money.

The ground school instruction at UND in the Aviation department was excellent. UND has very knowledgeable instructors (Doc Jensen comes to mind - amazing lecturer) but the quality of student instructors is spotty. I had a couple of stellar instructors but the others were horrible. I had to fire two of my instructors because they just didn't know how to teach. I'll never forget this one instructor I had was so bad that after one practice instrument approach I keyed the mic and said "this will be a full stop". That lesson barely lasted .4 Hobbs.

Also, steam gauge Piper Warriors were $82.50 wet when I went there in 2004-2007. I believe the costs went up exponentially with the glass Cessna 172s. Learning primary instrument training (heck, even VFR training when you don't even need the fancy gadgetry) in a glass cockpit will do you a big disfavor when Skywest (Brasilias), Piedmont (Dash 8s) , CommutAir (Dash 8s), Southwest, UPS, etc still has airplanes equipped with steam gauges.

UND has mediocre academic instructors (many of the business courses had below average instructors too). I am comparing them to my community college instructors in California - I came in with 2 years worth of general education credit from my community college courses. My community college education was much better.

Good luck!
 
Hm, ok. BBA In Aviation Management is something I should look into then. What is the difference as far as certificates when you graduate with BBA vs Commercial Aviation degree? Will it still be the same flight certificates?
 
rc-cola said:
Hm, ok. BBA In Aviation Management is something I should look into then. What is the difference as far as certificates when you graduate with BBA vs Commercial Aviation degree? Will it still be the same flight certificates?
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Your not required to have a college degree to be a pilot. Flight hours are the most important for sure, and the ratings are the same. When I was at UND to graduate with a Commercial Aviation major you needed to complete your private license through Commercial, Flight Instructor and Flight Instructor Instrument ratings. The aviation managment majors didn't need to have the flight instructor certificates. But the FAA certs are all the same, whether you go to some super aviation university or joe shmoe's FBO that flies beat up Cessna 152s. A PPL is a PPL no matter where it comes from, etc etc.
 
Ah ok. Yeah, I meant what different certificates to I gradute with regarding the 2 different degree paths. My only concern would be if I don't have CFI CFII it may be difficult to build any flight time without having to pay out of pocket.
 
rc-cola said:
Ah ok. Yeah, I meant what different certificates to I gradute with regarding the 2 different degree paths. My only concern would be if I don't have CFI CFII it may be difficult to build any flight time without having to pay out of pocket.
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I still say this is a terrible idea. Finish up your degree at NDSU, and save money in the mean time, even if you're not flying.
 
jhugz said:
I still say this is a terrible idea. Finish up your degree at NDSU, and save money in the mean time, even if you're not flying.
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Well, may not be so horrible. I'm going to pay $1,000 a month towards loans while I'm going to school. Every year 12,000 in loans paid off. Assuming it will take me 2-3 years to do, anywhere from 24,000-36,000 paid off by the time I graduate. So take $91,000(Total cost for flight+tuition) - $30,000 (Tuition paid by uncle same) - and then another say $24,000 that's around $42,000 left. Essentially leaving school with the same amount of loans as any another school.

That's the plan anyways!
 
rc-cola said:
Well, may not be so horrible. I'm going to pay $1,000 a month towards loans while I'm going to school. Every year 12,000 in loans paid off. Assuming it will take me 2-3 years to do, anywhere from 24,000-36,000 paid off by the time I graduate. So take $91,000(Total cost for flight+tuition) - $30,000 (Tuition paid by uncle same) - and then another say $24,000 that's around $42,000 left. Essentially leaving school with the same amount of loans as any another school.

That's the plan anyways!
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Take the next year at NDSU that Uncle Sam is paying, and during this next year don't fly at all and save up 12,000. Over year two fly 24,000 worth at the FBO on the south side of FAR airport. That should get you damn close to your single engine commercial if not your CFI. Then work as a CFI and slowly add on your -II w/o out taking on any debt. Continue working as a CFI-II, and add on your multi & MEI without any debt. What's the hurry? Sounds a lot better to me then 42k worth a debt just to get it done now.
 
jhugz said:
Take the next year at NDSU that Uncle Sam is paying, and during this next year don't fly at all and save up 12,000. Over year two fly 24,000 worth at the FBO on the south side of FAR airport. That should get you damn close to your single engine commercial if not your CFI. Then work as a CFI and slowly add on your -II w/o out taking on any debt. Continue working as a CFI-II, and add on your multi & MEI without any debt. What's the hurry? Sounds a lot better to me then 42k worth a debt just to get it done now.
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My only thing now though is the fact the NDSU will NOT be accepting Federal Tutition assistance anymore. It's a whole fiascle with the DoD. Long story short, NDSU hasn't, and most likely won't be siging the papers. So that was the main push to look at going to another school to begin with. So I would have to be paying about 7k out of pocket due to not accepting Tuition assistance. And it's also the non-monetary side of why would I stay at a school that doesn't support it's military members?
 
rc-cola said:
My only thing now though is the fact the NDSU will NOT be accepting Federal Tutition assistance anymore. It's a whole fiascle with the DoD. Long story short, NDSU hasn't, and most likely won't be siging the papers. So that was the main push to look at going to another school to begin with. So I would have to be paying about 7k out of pocket due to not accepting Tuition assistance. And it's also the non-monetary side of why would I stay at a school that doesn't support it's military members?
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I'd go to the University of Minnesota Crookston long before I went to UND. Plus they'll get you a degree in cropdusting which is way cooler then professional aviator. I can't speak volumes enough against collegiate aviation.
 
jhugz said:
I'd go to the University of Minnesota Crookston long before I went to UND. Plus they'll get you a degree in cropdusting which is way cooler then professional aviator. I can't speak volumes enough against collegiate aviation.
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Besides the price - what is the major downside of college aviation? The degree, I can see that during times of Furlough, however it doesn't matter what degree I have for the Military, as I will be commissioning next year. And with BBA in Aviation Management I have to think that's a little more marketable on the Civilian side than a Commercial Aviation Degree.

In all honesty though, with the way society has gone, it doesn't matter so much what degree you have. A 4 year degree has become the new high school diploma. It is just something that is required to check the box. And all it really shows future employers is 1: You understand the need to invest in yourself and 2: You can learn (Debatable with how easy college has become).

So, I guess besides those 2 obvious flags that would be raised with aviation, what do you have against it?
 
rc-cola said:
Besides the price - what is the major downside of college aviation?

That isn't enough? You can get any degree you want and still get hired on with the majors. It's also to structured with no wiggle room. It maybe fine for the 121 environment, but our company shy's away from UND'ers unless they really impress during the interview. A lot seem to struggle with the lack of micromanagement.

The degree, I can see that during times of Furlough, however it doesn't matter what degree I have for the Military, as I will be commissioning next year. And with BBA in Aviation Management I have to think that's a little more marketable on the Civilian side than a Commercial Aviation Degree.

It really isn't. The management degree doesn't even get you your CFI's at UND.

In all honesty though, with the way society has gone, it doesn't matter so much what degree you have. A 4 year degree has become the new high school diploma. It is just something that is required to check the box. And all it really shows future employers is 1: You understand the need to invest in yourself and 2: You can learn (Debatable with how easy college has become).

So why not get it in something useful? This is coming from someone who's getting his degree in aviation.

So, I guess besides those 2 obvious flags that would be raised with aviation, what do you have against it?

Have you already made up your mind and just wanted confirmation, or did you really want the truth to begin with. It does kind of sound like the first.
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The nasty little secret nobody is willing to tell you is, it all doesn't matter. No one has gone to UND, gone through their entire career then started over going to a mom and pop style FBO and going through their entire career, then telling you which route is better or preferred by XYZ company.

If you have your heart set on going to UND, go for it. It sounds like you have a plan, you have thought it out and have the financing available to help offset the costs. Don't worry about what degree to get. A 4 year degree with no experience in that field is the same as a fresh type rating with no time in type and 500 hours total time. Major in something you enjoy, history, basket weaving, whatever.

I've been hired more often for my going to UND than for not (4 for 0 to be exact). Not to bad of odds if you ask me.
 
Dugie8 said:
The nasty little secret nobody is willing to tell you is, it all doesn't matter. No one has gone to UND, gone through their entire career then started over going to a mom and pop style FBO and going through their entire career, then telling you which route is better or preferred by XYZ company.

If you have your heart set on going to UND, go for it. It sounds like you have a plan, you have thought it out and have the financing available to help offset the costs. Don't worry about what degree to get. A 4 year degree with no experience in that field is the same as a fresh type rating with no time in type and 500 hours total time. Major in something you enjoy, history, basket weaving, whatever.

I've been hired more often for my going to UND than for not (4 for 0 to be exact). Not to bad of odds if you ask me.
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Nice.. so you were hired specifically because you were at UND? Or just got a preference because of going to UND? I have heard this from other pilots as well, that they were hired due to UND.
 
I wouldn't say it's the fact that I made up my mind already, I'm just trying to avoid the obvious. I am well aware of 1: the cost and 2: the issues with having a commercial aviation degree. I was trying to find information besides that regarding if the school was worth it or not.

Such as if it would help one get hired, how are the classes, how are the instructors, does one feel satisfied and confident after the lessons from UND etc..
 
rc-cola said:
I wouldn't say it's the fact that I made up my mind already, I'm just trying to avoid the obvious. I am well aware of 1: the cost and 2: the issues with having a commercial aviation degree. I was trying to find information besides that regarding if the school was worth it or not.

Such as if it would help one get hired, how are the classes, how are the instructors, does one feel satisfied and confident after the lessons from UND etc..
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You can also get a degree in whatever you want and minor in professional flight FWIW, however if you are gonna do that just finish up at NDSU and fly on the side :)
 
rc-cola said:
Nice.. so you were hired specifically because you were at UND? Or just got a preference because of going to UND? I have heard this from other pilots as well, that they were hired due to UND.
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Everyone of my jobs has come from either being a UND grad or knowing/having worked with while at UND someone. That isn't to say I would not have gotten those jobs otherwise just an observation on my part. There are plenty of jobs out there to be had that are very good that have absolutely no affiliation with UND as well as jobs that are just as good that are Green, White and Pink throughout.

Honestly no one here can give you the yea or nay on UND. The good and bad is plastered all over. Whatever you decide in this profession, always go in eyes wide open, willing to adapt and leave the ego at the door. Accept whatever mistakes you will make, learn from them, cherish the good decisions you make and strive to make them again.
 
Dugie8 said:
Everyone of my jobs has come from either being a UND grad or knowing/having worked with while at UND someone. That isn't to say I would not have gotten those jobs otherwise just an observation on my part. There are plenty of jobs out there to be had that are very good that have absolutely no affiliation with UND as well as jobs that are just as good that are Green, White and Pink throughout.

Honestly no one here can give you the yea or nay on UND. The good and bad is plastered all over. Whatever you decide in this profession, always go in eyes wide open, willing to adapt and leave the ego at the door. Accept whatever mistakes you will make, learn from them, cherish the good decisions you make and strive to make them again.
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Thank you for the advice!
 
I graduated from UND in 2009 with a degree in Commercial Aviation. Here's what I would tell you.

UND does a great job at grooming you for an Airline profession. I, however, had a chance to intern at Hawker Beechcraft Corporation and got an inside look at the Part 91/135 world of private or corporate aviation and from that point on, that's exactly where I wanted to be. I believe that UND lacks the resources to really broaden your horizons as a pilot in other industries besides Part 121 and that's where I find I'm happiest as a pilot. I wish I would have had more exposure to it before, but I've worn my own path in the ground to get me into the King Air job as a charter pilot that I have now.

Since you can get all of your licenses no matter what aviation degree, get a degree in business aviation or airport management, that way when times are slow, you can be an airport manager, an FBO admin, or while being a pilot, you can perform other duties for the company besides flying. I've seen several jobs where they wanted someone to be a salesperson as well as a pilot so that you have additional worth to the company and that salary they're paying you is more than just a pilot's salary.

All in all, I've never wanted to go to the airlines, and I've never been to the airlines. I've wished I had more education in the business operations side and if I would do it over again, I'd definitely get a business degree in the aviation industry. I also took any odd job I could get flying, from Part 61 CFI to Part 91 Skydiver Driver to Aerial photography (like 500' camera guy hanging out the window of a 172, not aerial mapping) to Part 91 Corporate work in a Mooney, etc.

I'm glad to have graduated a Sioux and the overall University experience and living and Grand Forks was one that I cherish and am thankful for. Go for it, go be a Sioux and take your career where YOU want it to go.

Cheers
 
MNFlyboy said:
I graduated from UND in 2009 with a degree in Commercial Aviation. Here's what I would tell you.

UND does a great job at grooming you for an Airline profession. I, however, had a chance to intern at Hawker Beechcraft Corporation and got an inside look at the Part 91/135 world of private or corporate aviation and from that point on, that's exactly where I wanted to be. I believe that UND lacks the resources to really broaden your horizons as a pilot in other industries besides Part 121 and that's where I find I'm happiest as a pilot. I wish I would have had more exposure to it before, but I've worn my own path in the ground to get me into the King Air job as a charter pilot that I have now.

Since you can get all of your licenses no matter what aviation degree, get a degree in business aviation or airport management, that way when times are slow, you can be an airport manager, an FBO admin, or while being a pilot, you can perform other duties for the company besides flying. I've seen several jobs where they wanted someone to be a salesperson as well as a pilot so that you have additional worth to the company and that salary they're paying you is more than just a pilot's salary.

All in all, I've never wanted to go to the airlines, and I've never been to the airlines. I've wished I had more education in the business operations side and if I would do it over again, I'd definitely get a business degree in the aviation industry. I also took any odd job I could get flying, from Part 61 CFI to Part 91 Skydiver Driver to Aerial photography (like 500' camera guy hanging out the window of a 172, not aerial mapping) to Part 91 Corporate work in a Mooney, etc.

I'm glad to have graduated a Sioux and the overall University experience and living and Grand Forks was one that I cherish and am thankful for. Go for it, go be a Sioux and take your career where YOU want it to go.

Cheers
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Really appreciate the advice! Did they seem to care that youwere a UND grad where you're working?

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