Things CFIs are Sick of saying, doing, or hearing

[Ian_J]

Must be wonderful to know everything, to never be wrong, and have been a perfect student that never made mistakes or was slow to make a decision.

Yeah... it was pretty great.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Must be wonderful to know everything, to never be wrong, and have been a perfect student that never made mistakes or was slow to make a decision.

Desert, nobody is saying that we didn't make all of the above mistakes when we were CFI's - we're just saying that when you're a CFI, they get old to hear.

You'll see.

 

[Chris_Ford]

Must be wonderful to know everything, to never be wrong, and have been a perfect student that never made mistakes or was slow to make a decision.

:yeahthat:

 

[Killtron2000]

I would think saying departure leg would imply that you were leaving the area instead of staying in the pattern. Either way this seems trivial and I don't call upwind I just say "Hickville traffic Cessna abc123 turning crosswind Hickville".

 

[Airdale]

I would think saying departure leg would imply that you were leaving the area instead of staying in the pattern.

Thats how I interpret that. I did all of my intial PPL training in Flordia and spent countless hours in the pattern at Fernandina beach and various other airports. It has always been the "upwind" leg when remaining in the pattern, I have never heard someone say the departure leg and I wasn't taught to call it that. But typically I don't call "On the upwind" I call "Turning Left/Right crosswind for runway xx".

For the turn to crosswind in the pattern, I was taught from day one, 500'AGL. This keeps the pattern closer to the field should you have an emergency as well as keep the pattern symmetric, because the turn from base to final should be passing through 500' AGL. I was taught this by my school's chief pilot, this is how I teach it, and this is how we fly it in the Seminole. I've flown this pattern on every checkride, with every examiner and was never questioned. The Seminole is rather fast anyway, so if you wait until you get within 300' TPA, you've probably covered almost a half mile more than you would have if you turned at 500' AGL.

While I agree that CFI's should teach everything out of the book the correct way, also realize in some situations, like mine, I am getting paid to teach students a particular way. This was made very clear on my checkout with the chief pilot that I am not getting paid to do it my way, I get paid to teach it their way. Their way, which is how I was taught, is turn crosswind at 500' AGL. Thats what I do, thats what I teach.
Unless "their way" violates a reg. or imparts on safety of the flight, you can bet I'm going to do it "their way" as long as my paycheck has their name on it. The school I work for must be doing it the right way, because they've been training airline pilots for years. Does it really matter whether you turn at 500'AGL or within 300' of TPA? Probably not. Every aircraft and every pilot flies a different pattern then each other. Someone in a 172 will fly a slower, closer pattern then someone in a twin. Someone in a jet will fly a wider, faster pattern then someone in a twin.

Does it matter that someone calls it the "upwind" leg or "departure" leg? I highly doubt it. Either way, its the same damn leg and every pilot out there knows or should know what friggin leg it is. You people have too much time on your hands to be arguing about something ridiculous like this.

 

[Airdale]

And as for the original topic, students will always do and say things that we get tired of hearing or correcting. Thats why they are students. Everyday I have to remind my students of the correct steps in the engine failure checklist. Does this make me mad? No. Because it is my job to teach, and their job to learn. Students make mistakes. I was a student, I made mistakes. Sometimes when a student continually makes the same mistake, you need to clear your throat a bit and crank up the heat on them. Make them realize that they need to stop making the same mistake. I always tell my students when I get tough on them in the plane or in the sim, its only because my job is to make them a great pilot, its doesn't mean that they are horrible and I'm getting annoying. It just means I need to increase the stress level and make a point, this way they remember not to make the mistake again.

It wasn't long ago that I was a student myself. In fact I've only been instructing for 3 weeks now. I'm not the best instructor, but I try very hard. I work hard to train my students to be safe, competant pilots and I enjoy teaching because I myself am still learning. A good CFI is one that is always learning, teaches safely and within regulation and most importantly, tailors each lesson to the students individual needs to ensure that they are getting the training they deserve. I have had a few times already where I forget the answer to something, grabbed the book along with my student and looked it up. I'm not affraid to admit when I'm wrong and I'm certainly not affraid to admit that I don't everything about aviation. In fact I feel like I have a lot of learning left to do, but sometimes the student can be the best teacher.

 

[deserteaglle]

It has always been the "upwind" leg when remaining in the pattern, I have never heard someone say the departure leg and I wasn't taught to call it that.

Ok, so I don't think it's that huge of a deal, I don't call "Departure" leg either, I just call out "Departing RWY 16...Left xwind, etc. etc., but it does show diagrams in both the AIM and the Jeppessen Oral Guide noting that a flight path parallel to the rwy is the "Upwind".

Like I said, not a huge deal, but that is the way it's supposed to be, I don't know why some would be so opposed doing it by the book.

 

[Airdale]

Ok, so I don't think it's that huge of a deal, I don't call "Departure" leg either, I just call out "Departing RWY 16...Left xwind, etc. etc., but it does show diagrams in both the AIM and the Jeppessen Oral Guide noting that a flight path parallel to the rwy is the "Upwind".

Like I said, not a huge deal, but that is the way it's supposed to be, I don't know why some would be so opposed doing it by the book.

I think the reason so many people call it the "upwind" as opposed to "departure" is because in the pattern, who really flies on the upwind? And why? Even if you are getting ready to make your pattern entry, you are overflying the field to make the 45 entry on the downwind. I've never flown on the "upwind" leg before and I don't know way someone would, therefore I think people just use the term for the departure leg. I've known it to be the departure leg, but I've never made that call. I use the same call you mentioned above. Honestly I think its stupid to argue over this topic. You're in a critical phase of flight and typically you have your hands full. I just call the corners. When someone states they are on the "upwind" when I'm in the pattern, I know where to look, I think thats the most important thing.

 

[Stone Cold]

I think the reason so many people call it the "upwind" as opposed to "departure" is because in the pattern, who really flies on the upwind? And why? Even if you are getting ready to make your pattern entry, you are overflying the field to make the 45 entry on the downwind. I've never flown on the "upwind" leg before and I don't know way someone would, therefore I think people just use the term for the departure leg. I've known it to be the departure leg, but I've never made that call. I use the same call you mentioned above. Honestly I think its stupid to argue over this topic. You're in a critical phase of flight and typically you have your hands full. I just call the corners. When someone states they are on the "upwind" when I'm in the pattern, I know where to look, I think thats the most important thing.

Uh, I've flown on the upwind before...circling maneuvers, going missed, teaching a stud that had problems correlating the rectangular pattern to the traffic pattern, teaching a stud what being high on final is and why you don't want to be there (let the stud learn from their mistakes instead of correcting them and them not knowing why you are saying you're WAY too high). There are quite a few reasons to fly over the departure leg on the upwind.

 

[deserteaglle]

I overshot my turn to final once and did a go around on the "Upwind" leg.

 

[ColMustard]

Justify it however you feel, fellas!

Using "upwind leg" as opposed to "departure leg" is similar to saying your tail number and "wilco", or just saying your tail number: They are used interchangebly

I don't find this minutia to be a problem. As far as communication goes, the folks to ask about that is the ATC's, and I know for a fact the ONE thing they hate is when there is no reply to a radio call.

-ColM

 

[flyguy]

Like I said, not a huge deal, but that is the way it's supposed to be, I don't know why some would be so opposed doing it by the book.

I don't think anybody here is opposed to doing it by the book. I think we are all in agreement that "departure" is in the AIM and it is the correct term. The argument is whether or not calling it "upwind" is a big problem, and I think most of us are in agreement that it does not make that big of a difference. Its getting to the point now that we're agruing about whether or not we should be arguing about it. I apologize as I'm paritally to blame for getting it going, but maybe we can put it to rest now?