the worst fractional

#1FMS

Well-Known Member
Avantair is in "talks" with the Dept. of Labor after discriminating against a military (Navy) guy. After telling him to come out for the job - from CA to FL - one of the directors there told him they wouldn't hire him because he was in the Reserves. The Navy wasn't too happy about it, hence the "talks" with the Labor Dept.

VNR also falsely advertises that it has meteorologists which it does not have and never has had...see for yourself...
http://www.avantair.com/Menu/AboutAvantAir/SafetyByDesign.aspx

It's hysterical: call them and ask where their "meteorologists" went to college, if they are AMS-Certified, and ask to speak to one.

They've done other things which I will post later...

Does your fractional discriminate against the military and falsely advertise?
 
Avantair is in "talks" with the Dept. of Labor after discriminating against a military (Navy) guy. After telling him to come out for the job - from CA to FL - one of the directors there told him they wouldn't hire him because he was in the Reserves. The Navy wasn't too happy about it, hence the "talks" with the Labor Dept.

VNR also falsely advertises that it has meteorologists which it does not have and never has had...see for yourself...
http://www.avantair.com/Menu/AboutAvantAir/SafetyByDesign.aspx

It's hysterical: call them and ask where their "meteorologists" went to college, if they are AMS-Certified, and ask to speak to one.

They've done other things which I will post later...

Does your fractional discriminate against the military and falsely advertise?
I personally know 6 people who currently work there or have worked there in the past 2 years and they have been/were very pleased with their employment with Avantair. Two of those six were former military (although neither in the Reserves).

Remember also: There are two sides to every story.

IF Avantair refused to hire this pilot because of his Reserve status, then he has a case.

Chances are, there are other reasons he was denied and this is the reason he believes he is giving.

Don't know that either. Don't know the guy.

As for whether or not they have weather guessers on staff - if they say they do and they don't - then it's false information.
 
It's not merely the reason the navy guy is giving, it is the reason one of the directors gave on a recorded line, hence the Labor Dept. pursuing the issue.

Having worked there myself, I can say that most there are dissatisfied with the pay, benefits, and treatment of people.

One of the illegal things they did was fly well after sunset out of an airport designated in their GOM as a mountainous airport despite their GOM explicitly prohibiting operation out of mountainous airports after sunset. This was pointed out to the DO as well as the VP of Ops, both of whom gave hearty approval to violate the GOM because, in the words of the VP of Ops, "This guy just paid us a million bicks; he's not gonna understand."
 
That's the first time I've ever heard anything bad about Avantair. I know some pilots there and have only heard good things from them and others I've ran into. There are complainers everywhere, but it seems everyone I meet from Avantair is happy.
 
It's not merely the reason the navy guy is giving, it is the reason one of the directors gave on a recorded line, hence the Labor Dept. pursuing the issue.

Having worked there myself, I can say that most there are dissatisfied with the pay, benefits, and treatment of people.

One of the illegal things they did was fly well after sunset out of an airport designated in their GOM as a mountainous airport despite their GOM explicitly prohibiting operation out of mountainous airports after sunset. This was pointed out to the DO as well as the VP of Ops, both of whom gave hearty approval to violate the GOM because, in the words of the VP of Ops, "This guy just paid us a million bicks; he's not gonna understand."
Too bad. I can tell you, however, Avantair isn't the only fractional doing that kind of thing. I'm not defending it, or saying it's acceptable, but if the PIC doesn't have the spine to say "I'm not doing this...." then, it's on him/her.

In the ironies of all ironies, by buddy who works there currently, called me today and he is still quite pleased with his employment.

He upgraded to Captain a little over a year ago. He's been there for 3 years, and while he didn't necessarily enjoy the FO pay (having come from an IT background), he told me that he's finally "comfortable" with the pay he's making as a Captain.

One of my other friends just moved up to management there and is doing exptremely well....as his her spouse.

As for whether "most" are unhappy with the pay.....I can't attest to that as I only know 6 pilots currently on staff.....but, they're happy.

Just my take. You're mileage may vary.....and apparently does.
 
In the ironies of all ironies, by buddy who works there currently, called me today and he is still quite pleased with his employment.

Ironic, I got a call today from a guy I know over there as well. He loves it and has no desire to go anywhere else, says he gets treated very well.
 
That's the company I have my sights on to end up at in a few years. So interesting info. But overall, the majority of people there I know of love it (I do not know any pilots, just some administration I met at NBAA). No company can please everyone.
 
As of last spring or summer, they lost something like 36 pilots in that roughly six month period, at a time when they only had about 140 pilots.
That's a 25% turnover rate. I don't know any business but fast food that has that kind of turnover rate, and I certainly don't know any airlines or fractionals with that kind of turnover rate.

It shocks me that people don't have anythng to say about them doing illegal things and advertising falsely...I wouldn't tell my worst enemy to work for them.
 
As of last spring or summer, they lost something like 36 pilots in that roughly six month period, at a time when they only had about 140 pilots.
That's a 25% turnover rate. I don't know any business but fast food that has that kind of turnover rate, and I certainly don't know any airlines or fractionals with that kind of turnover rate.
It's called the aviation industry. American Eagle lost about 700 FO's last year or some sick number last that.

The grass is always greener somewhere else. Sometimes, that's true, sometimes it's not.

I can tell you that a ton of folks who left Eagle do the same thing you're doing now and talk ****. I can recommend you to about 4000 others who have a different story.

If you didn't like it - so be it. You left. Good on you and good luck where ever you are now.

Just quit internet-stalking your former employer. Doesn't speak highly of the kind of person you are.

#1FMS said:
It shocks me that people don't have anythng to say about them doing illegal things and advertising falsely...I wouldn't tell my worst enemy to work for them.
"Allegedly" is the word you are looking for.

Avantair may be under investigation, but it doesn't mean they did anything wrong. As we've already established - there are two sides to every story.

Seems to me, you have it out for Avantair. Perhaps your departure wasn't your own doing? Don't know...but, you do seem to have it out for them.

Perhaps you should move on.

You have your side of your story, but as you can see from the responses, folks (like me and Snuggles) who know folks who are still there - are hearing MUCH different stories from friends who wouldn't BS us.

Just my thoughts.

R2F
 
That's a 25% turnover rate. I don't know any business but fast food that has that kind of turnover rate, and I certainly don't know any airlines or fractionals with that kind of turnover rate.

Hmmm.... I'm in trouble on this one. But here it goes...

My main business (headhunting/ executive recruiting) has a 400% turn over rate per year. That means we hire 5 people and sometimes 1 lasts 12 months. It actual ratio is 6 new hires for 1 to last 12 months and 8 new hires to get 2 years and around 12 new hires to find one to last longer; but rarely more than 5 years!

The joke in executive recruiting is that you don't even introduce yourself or print up business cards unless they been around 90 days. If they are around another 90 days, take them to lunch and give them a name plate on the desk and welcome them aboard since 50% of new hires already wash out by then. If around for their one year review plus 3 more months, give them a gold medal since in 15-18 months 75%+ are gone! And those who make it past 24 months, well they will tend to be in the business for 3-5 years. Burn out is 3-5 years since by year three they should be making $100K+ to remain employed and by year 5 the expectation is double that or you will be under the gun to do more and more (after all it's sales and every year you are expected to do more until you pretty much break!). I did it for 8 years and running now. That makes me a dinosaur in this industry. The stress can kill someone, so it's not worth the $100k to $800k per year you will make pending how much of your waking hours you dedicate to the business.

As matter of fact, any mostly sales job has well over 25%+ turn over across all industries. Car Sales, Stock Brokers, Insurance Sales, Headhunters/ Exec Recruiters, Pharmaceutical Sales, and so on all have ridiculous turn over rates at all companies (whether it be Prudential or the small firm I run).

Retail and Restaurant in general also a high turn over in general, not just fast food (even at the management level). Did you see the huge turn over rate in school teaching lately? Well over 25% now. And most any professional services firm from McKinsey & Co to Ernst and Young has super high turn over.

When I was a CPA years ago, it was clear most never stick around (I was one of those). I never seen a CPA firm where half of the new hires do not leave in the first 2 years, and the majority are gone within 4 years. Where do they go? Usually to another CPA firm just to leave them in a few years to take a corporate job for less pay, but more of a life. Or straight to a corporate job after the first firm. And how long do they stay in the corporate job? Only 3-5 years before switching again.

So 15-25% turn over is not bad for most companies. Of course most would like it to be closer to zero, but that's not reality in the new millennium. Right now, you tend to keep your executives longer than staff due to many reasons I won't get into (most of the reason being the way execs are compensated which gives them finanical security over other employees). But even that is slowly changing to where executives are now beginning to look for greener pastures where very few exist once you get in and through he smoke and mirrors interview process most companies have. And those at middle management and below, high turn overs are expected now in companies (and sadly, most accept that as the way of business now).

So 25% turn is not that bad by today's standards. It's not always been that way, since just 20-30 short years ago people had more loyalty to companies. So what happened? Well, companies across the board over the last two decades have cut overall benefit packages, reduced raises to a cost of living level, expect longer working hours than in the past, had major downsizing without paying much severance, and so on. And even in the union environment, the unions lost much of their influence and power so job security is down even with union representation. All this translates to less employee loyalty since everyone knows there is very little job security anywhere you go now. So lack of "company loyalty" per say yields lack of "employee loyalty".

Overall, people move around eight to ten times more than 30 years ago over a 40 year career. All in the search for the place that will pay a fair wage for work done, offer a sense of job security, and yield a good quality of life. Very few people have a sense of all three anymore (I do not anyone personally who can say yes to all three of those.. the job security one usually being the variable that's lacking most times). But long ago, companies like GM, Ford, Bethlehem Steel, etc. all offered all three of these things to their employees. And even those legacy carriers like Pan Am offered this many moons ago. Where are all those companies now? In 1940 you went to work at GM and started on the line and retired as an executive, all with one company. Today you go to GM and hope you have a job tomorrow and that they stop reducing our benefits while expecting more hours from you for less pay.

I still have hope. These conditions can't go on forever. Other great companies will rise as the current legacies fall. Just keep an eat open and try to plan the best you can to get into the new great company. And for that, you may want to keep your eyes out on the global level.
 
I have talked to a lot of Avantair guys on the road. Only one or two seemed happy with the company, and they were both new hires.

Alex.
 
I have talked to a lot of Avantair guys on the road. Only one or two seemed happy with the company, and they were both new hires.

Alex.
There's a big difference between jaded and unhappy, Alex.

Just because a pilot isn't swooning about his/her job, doesn't mean they are unhappy. It simply means they are settled in. It's a job...not an adventure.

As for people wanting more money as the original poster mentioned: Who doesn't? I know folks making six figures who want more. I'd venture to say nobody is happy with what they are making. The more you make, the more you spend, the more you want.
 
There's a big difference between jaded and unhappy, Alex.

Just because a pilot isn't swooning about his/her job, doesn't mean they are unhappy. It simply means they are settled in. It's a job...not an adventure.

I know what you are saying, but Avantair seems like the Colgan of fractionals from the pilots I have talked to. Every ex-Avantair pilot I have talked to (which is only four people) talked the same way as FMS. Even Avbug has bad things to say about them from his stint there (imagine that!). I have never heard a Netjets or Flexjet pilot talk this way. Other then talking to the pilots, I have no experience with Avantair, so I have no real opinion, I'm just saying what I've heard.

Alex.
 
I know there are pilots who complain no matter where they are, so I'm sure their out there at Avantair. I made a post before about a Netjets crew who laughed at me when I told them I wanted to work there. A Flexjet guy has told me to go to Netjets and stay away from Flexjet.

There are pilots at every company who want to see everyone else as miserable as they are and hate their life/jobs for whatever reason. They want everyone around them to be unhappy. Perspective is everything. The Netjets crew laughing at me were both Captains making over six figures. I can guarantee they have a better job then I do any day of the week.
 
There is nothing alleged about a recorded phone call that made the Navy and the Dept of Labor cringe. It's simply a fact. Some people don't like facts, though.

My departure was my own, and they wanted to keep me. In my department, the turnover rate was about %50, and no there is no airline or fractional in the world that I know of (and I personally know lots of folks at lots of airlines) where they have such a hideous turnover rate.

Almost nobody, for instance, in the OCC was happy there, with 3% a year raises and family benefits costing $5,000/yr. Netjets pays more and pays for your benefits. They have training and a reputation that easily rival avantair. Some of you speak of the few you know at VNR. I know many more there than anyone who posted here, and almost all of them are unhappy.

There is no logical reason on earth why some of you are defending a company that clearly operates illegally, discriminates against the military, and practices false advertising. Can only "disgruntled" people "complain"
about illegal and unsafe practices? If you don't think there's something wrong with their practices, you're in the wrong business.
 
Does this come to a surprise to people? Generally you judge how good companies are by their pay, and suffice to say Avantair certainly is the bottom of the barrel as far as fracs go.
 
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