The warping of intent: FAR 117

Autothrust Blue said:
Ain't gonna look over there and unilaterally decide the other guy (gal) (fox) is going to do an extension. No way.

@Acrofox
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You might not, but that sentiment isn't always shared by all. I have that t-shirt, thank you kindly. Also, thank you for being a good Captain. Or soon to be. Or whatever. You know what I mean tall Derg!
 
etflies said:
You might not, but that sentiment isn't always shared by all. I have that t-shirt, thank you kindly. Also, thank you for being a good Captain. Or soon to be. Or whatever. You know what I mean tall Derg!
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I hope you unbuckled your seat belt while dialing Crew Suppression to call in fatigued if that happened to you. (That's the recourse, I guess.)

Yeah, that's just wrong. I know bloody well what the regulation says, but the fitness of both crewmembers is required and should be considered in the Captain's decision to accept an extension.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I'm not a fan of that part of the reg, but it is what it is. I don't know many captains who would accept an extension when their FO didn't want to.
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I've refused extensions as an FO at XJT, and was given no grief by scheduling. They never made me call in fatigued.

Of course, now that I'm the boss, I take care of my crews because it's the right thing to do.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I hope you unbuckled your seat belt while dialing Crew Suppression to call in fatigued if that happened to you. (That's the recourse, I guess.)

Yeah, that's just wrong. I know bloody well what the regulation says, but the fitness of both crewmembers is required and should be considered in the Captain's decision to accept an extension.
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We were at the gate, and fortunately for him I was ok with extending but I certainly addressed the issue of speaking on my behalf, particularly when it came to safety and/or duty issues. It was an entirely civil discussion and the rest of the trip was pretty enjoyable. He was brand new to both the airplane and the seat and it didn't cross his mind. Dude now flies for a legacy and we keep in touch, and it's a solid "tell me about a time" nugget for potential interviews. Had it not been civil then I'd have had no problem following your recommended course of action.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Ain't gonna look over there and unilaterally decide the other guy (gal) (fox) is going to do an extension. No way.

@Acrofox
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I was agreeing with you.
Even then I take a long hard look at the FO to make sure he/she is really ok. Many will take your lead even if they are tired. I also make it clear to them that if they are too tired the decision will be mine, I will not throw them under the bus.

Finally, remember that taking the extension means you are good for the entire flight. I've regretted taking them a few times an hour or so later as we are in cruise and the FO and I are feeling it. I am very, very hesitant to take them now.
 
etflies said:
We were at the gate, and fortunately for him I was ok with extending but I certainly addressed the issue of speaking on my behalf, particularly when it came to safety and/or duty issues. It was an entirely civil discussion and the rest of the trip was pretty enjoyable. He was brand new to both the airplane and the seat and it didn't cross his mind. Dude now flies for a legacy and we keep in touch, and it's a solid "tell me about a time" nugget for potential interviews. Had it not been civil then I'd have had no problem following your recommended course of action.
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That's a relief.

Blackhawk said:
I was agreeing with you.
Even then I take a long hard look at the FO to make sure he/she is really ok. Many will take your lead even if they are tired. I also make it clear to them that if they are too tired the decision will be mine, I will not throw them under the bus.

Finally, remember that taking the extension means you are good for the entire flight. I've regretted taking them a few times an hour or so later as we are in cruise and the FO and I are feeling it. I am very, very hesitant to take them now.
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I figured you were. I merely amplified.

And yeah..."Gosh, this was a good idea when I started..."
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I'm not a fan of that part of the reg, but it is what it is. I don't know many captains who would accept an extension when their FO didn't want to.
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I had this situation arise a few weeks ago. Was flying with a capt that I was good friends with and respected. Weather was over the hub airport where I happened to live and the ramp kept reopening and closing. It was a 5 leg day and we were going to have to take a 2 hr extension on a 12.5 hr duty day. He wanted to take the extension just because he was a commuter and wanted a hotel for the night. I called scheduling and refused my extension. Per normal procedures I was required to conference call with the CP. CP was on another call at the time. They let me leave with the understanding that CP would call me back. Long story short, when I did talk to the CP I was told that FO's couldn't refuse extensions.... I was either fatigued or going back to the plane....
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I hope you unbuckled your seat belt while dialing Crew Suppression to call in fatigued if that happened to you. (That's the recourse, I guess.)

Yeah, that's just wrong. I know bloody well what the regulation says, but the fitness of both crewmembers is required and should be considered in the Captain's decision to accept an extension.
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Entry of your password into the ACARS initialization page constitutes agreement to a duty extension....

Hasn't been an issue yet.



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grchase90 said:
I had this situation arise a few weeks ago. Was flying with a capt that I was good friends with and respected. Weather was over the hub airport where I happened to live and the ramp kept reopening and closing. It was a 5 leg day and we were going to have to take a 2 hr extension on a 12.5 hr duty day. He wanted to take the extension just because he was a commuter and wanted a hotel for the night. I called scheduling and refused my extension. Per normal procedures I was required to conference call with the CP. CP was on another call at the time. They let me leave with the understanding that CP would call me back. Long story short, when I did talk to the CP I was told that FO's couldn't refuse extensions.... I was either fatigued or going back to the plane....
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I didn't say it would never happen. Obviously some guys will do that. But we have to be sure we aren't confusing two issues (fatigue vs. an operational issue). You never have to fly when you aren't fit for duty. No one can volunteer you to fly if you are fatigued or sick. So if that's the reason you don't want to accept the extension, call out fatigued or sick. Period. If you don't want to accept it for some reason other than being fit for duty, you gotta work that out with el Capitan. If the captain doesn't agree with your reasoning, or whatever, you gotta go since you aren't unfit, and you aren't PIC.

Basically, the company is saying that if the FO is fit to fly, and the captain decides for the crew that the extension is okay, the crew is going. Its not a fatigue issue because if you're fatigued, you gotta call out regardless of what the captain says. That's really no different than any other situation. If you're aren't sick (you're fit for duty), and you cannot get your trip dropped, saddle up, you gotta fly. You can't just refuse to fly for no reason. Well...you can...but you may not be employed afterwards.
 
@Autothrust Blue et al... Read more carefully... You can concur all you want as the CA, but when you refuse an extension the refusal does not apply to the FO.

Et al: stop thinking of extension refusals purely for fatigue.
 
I've yet to take an extension. And it was my decision to make at my company.

Interesting scenario though Spice. Hmm.


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PhilosopherPilot said:
The fact is if you are fatigued, do the right thing and remove yourself from duty. Let the PTO/Company Paid issue go to the Fatigue committee. Don't do something illegal (affirm fit for duty) due to a concern over PTO.
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And I will add document everything that happens. Where I work there is a rather onerous report that has be be filled out that includes a sleep matrix. Some guys would rather just call in sick than play the game. Follow the contract. If it's a hotel noise issue ask for another room and if you still can't sleep then get a name and statement from the front desk about the construction. Just happened to me in OAK a few months ago. When the FAT call goes to the committee I see it like being in court. The better case you make the better chance you have to win.
 
surreal1221 said:
I've yet to take an extension. And it was my decision to make at my company.

Interesting scenario though Spice. Hmm.


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That's my point - the power your company gives you has no legal basis. The regulation does not specify FO. So, if your company is magnanimous and goes above and beyond the reg, great. If they follow the letter, you're screwed.
 
tbstanto said:
Here was a recent "unforeseen" delay...

We were about ready to push and I called clearance to give them a heads up to start working on a release time to our destination airport. They came back and said that the destination airport had issued a ground stop due to weather and it would be in effect for 90 minutes.

We had already accepted a 2 hour extension and were going to be using the majority of it, but this ground stop would mean that we would land about 75 minutes past the end of our extension. At that point, we were at the gate, the door was open, and the jetbridge was connected. We knew of the delay, and in our opinion, it was no longer "unforeseen". We could clearly see that if we pushed, we would land well after our extension ran out.

The company's version of unforeseen and ours is evidently very different, as they said to just ignore the ground stop and push...thus making any further delays unforeseen and we could complete the trip.
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You cannot take off knowing you will go past your extension or max flight time. It doesn't matter if you pushed, you cannot takeoff knowing you will go over the limit. If the ground stop continued and put you past the extension by 75 minutes, its illegal.
 
DE727UPS said:
And I will add document everything that happens. Where I work there is a rather onerous report that has be be filled out that includes a sleep matrix. Some guys would rather just call in sick than play the game. Follow the contract. If it's a hotel noise issue ask for another room and if you still can't sleep then get a name and statement from the front desk about the construction. Just happened to me in OAK a few months ago. When the FAT call goes to the committee I see it like being in court. The better case you make the better chance you have to win.
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Absolutely.
 
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