The Turkey ACE

[JoeBlow]

Pan Am in AZ had ACE after MEI and at that time they didn’t have the CRJ sim. After students finished their MEI, they had no money for ACE which meant money lost for Pan Am. Well Pan Am moved ACE after commercial multi. I left after commercial multi and so do others. When I left I witnessed some 10 students leave within the same month-money Pan Am lost. Didn’t the FL campus just move ACE before commercial single? I’m just speculating a business strategy that Pan Am has implemented. It looks that Pan Am has moved ACE in FL before commercial single so as to catch their profits sooner and with hopes that student will stick around to finish every rating. I see ACE as beneficial for pilots that will be hired soon after finishing the ACE program. Spending 8hrs a day for a few weeks cramming then only 30hrs in the sim, 15 as PIC and 15 as SIC, before you are even a commercial pilot doesn’t seem productive or cost effective. But, you can’t be hired by Pan Am unless you do ACE.

 

[Mavmb]

[ QUOTE ]
I try to post my experience at Pan Am in a way that won't start a huge argument... But it never works. I will keep posting what I experience and let everyone else continue the argument.
As for the $7000... Yes you could get a 737 type rating for it, but ACA, ASA, Comair, and so on, dont fly 737's, so it wont help my career until I shoot for the majors. Which in my case won't happen for at least 10 years, and by then I will be 40, and I may decide to stay at a regional, or go to a fractional.

So for the short term, this is how ACE (in my opinion) will help me:
1) I can learn the CRJ-200 systems without the added pressure of learning it for a job.
2) When I get to a regional, even if they fly turbo-props, I will already know how to use FMS, auto-pilot, read and use the PFD, MFD, and EICAS. As most tubo-props use at least a partial glass cockpit, if not full glass.

This class is tough enough without a job on the line. I feel I will have an advantage when I get to initial training at a regional airline.

I talked to my Cousin, who is a captain at ACA flying the Jetstream41, (and FSI grad) and asked him if ACE was a bad idea. He said if he had been exposed to those systems before he got to ACA, his initial training on the J41 would have been a lot easier.

So it's that simple, I talked to someone I trust, and made an educated decision based on that.

The Turk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, I'm not picking on the Turk here. On the contrary, I wish him the best of luck and I am trying to help him and everybody else from what I've been through so far. However, I'm not going to ignore the fact that someone is getting robbed, just because it is a post on a website. This whole thread is just like "Hey I got mugged on the street today" and everyone's reaction is: "Wonderful! Thanks for making a post!"

Anyway, flight schools are a business and I realize now what money makers for a school are. Personally, I'd like to hear from people like Doug, Eagle, A300 Captain, etc., if they have time, what their thoughts on programs like this are straight up. Because everyone I've talked to has said that ACE is just another 7000 dollar deposit for the school. In fact, that's why it got moved ahead of the CFI program as the above poster pointed out.

So you jet and turbo pilots out there, you can see what people say the benefits of the Ace program are. So is a program like this worth the money or should an aspiring pilot get his/her cfi first? Like I said before 7,000 dollars is a lot of money, especially when you become a CFI.

 

[pure_IMC]

this is not in response to the ace program, but to the question near the beginning of the post about safety pilot and route. None of the time is safety pilot. Its all pic with the exception of taxiing and shooting approaches.

 

[robair73]

Whenever I need some entertainment, I just have to come to the good old Pan Am board. YEEHHAAA!!!

 

[dakovich]

in defense of the cost, while i was at Panam i researched getting a rating for the CRJ straight from tha manufacturer and it was around $25,000 for a single pilot to complete the training. it was cheaper with 2 pilots enrolled. either way theres no way you can get the type rating for that aircraft for the cost of ACE. i also looked at multiple ways to learn the systems used that are used in the CRJ from rockwell-collins and found some pretty cheap ways to get the simulators for the FMS and what not. of course that involved working through an accredited school and getting the software and full manuals. i'm kindda cheap and like to save money where ever possible. i just wish ACE was placed in the curriculum in a way that would provide a better benefit for the students. its true many left after the commercial ride(as i did) which probably did cost Panam because so many bypassed not only ACE but also all three CFI ratings. its just from that point it was very easy to look ahead and see how much the whole program was going to cost, and if the student wasn't willing to spend over $60,000 or at least sacrifice CFI-I, MEI or both in order to get ACE then why would they stay. why not save some cash and finish up somewhere else. and what good is ACE before your commercial ride...wayyyy to early to introduce that for so many reasons. i personally had many more reasons for leaving(not all because of Panam), but i saw many friends who had to make these decissions and a bunch ended up leaving. i completely see the benefit of ACE, and i saw a real potential when the money back guarentee was around while i was there but now with that gone its a little less of an inscentive to take the program or even go to Panam at all. before, you could take the ACE course, go through all the instructor ratings, instruct and build hours and if you weren't hired at the guranteed hours then you get your money back. cool thing was you could retake the ACE and keep brushing up your skills at that point for around $3500(half price)...and the skills would be real fresh right at the point you really needed them.


anyway, congrats Turk! keep plugging away and do your best, and keep updating.

 

[TDK90]

[ QUOTE ]
this is not in response to the ace program, but to the question near the beginning of the post about safety pilot and route. None of the time is safety pilot. Its all pic with the exception of taxiing and shooting approaches

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure you understand the question..perhaps you can explain to me how 2 pilots in a Seminole [simarlily rated] can log PIC unless one of them is a safety pilot, or one is an MEI and the other is multi-engine rated.

My reason for asking is that I was recently at a seminar where we had a presentation from an airline recruiter who told us that they disregard multi time that has been logged as safety pilot i.e. about 50% of the time on the Pan Am route program or ATP time building.

 

[Snow]

Well done Turk!

 

[pure_IMC]

This is an ongoing debate, and there seems to be a loophole in the reg. Its to early to break out the fars, but basically, If the person in the left seat is under the hood, the right seat is safety pilot. Both can legally log pic except the right seat can not while taxiing and while the approach is taking place. And this is also assuming that you are not flying through IMC. From all the people that have gone for interviews recently, this has been a non issue. Ill break out the reg later.

 

[Acadia]

It is certainly legal to log PIC as a safety pilot. You are also supposed to indicate that it is safety pilot time as well. So when you head in for an interview with say 200hrs multi and 100hrs is from being a safety pilot you should be sharing that information with who ever is reviewing your logbook. I also have heard that some operations don’t give credit (or as much credit) for PIC time that was earned as safety pilot. I have never had a real interview myself, but I have had some long (sort of pre-interview) discussions with several charter operations. Each one wanted to know if any of my PIC time was safety pilot time.

It may be a big issue or a non-issue depending on where the interview is. I would certainly not want to depend on safety pilot time if at all possible.

 

[Raskolnikov]

Way to go Turk! It's good to hear that people are making progress and realizing their goals. I hope to be flying in about a year and it's good to hear positive stories like Turk's in the meantime. Keeps me going.

 

[TheFlyingTurkey]

Dakovich,
When did the money back gurantee for ACE end? It is in my contract, and I haven't seen anything that says it is no longer valid.

The Turk.

 

[dakovich]

have no clue when it ended for new students, but i heard it from posters on here. i also noticed the money back guarantee banner on the panam website was gone, and couldn't find a remnant of it anywhere else on the site. i admit i didn't look to hard but it used to be all over the site. if you have it in your contract though i don't see that any of this will affect your studies. keep up the good work!

 

[sofakingbad]

[ QUOTE ]
Both can legally log pic except the right seat can not while taxiing and while the approach is taking place.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, who is doing the "see and avoid" when you are on the approach? Its rhetorical...

As long as the pilot is flying under the hood, you are their eyes, even on an approach. So, log that time if you want.

 

[pure_IMC]

well the way I understand it you cant log pic on approach. You can't log the approach as safety pilot so i would assume pic would be the same.

 

[sofakingbad]

Check out CFR 91.109b and 61.51g. Also, since the safety pilot hasn't performed the approached (61.57c), you're right that he can't log the actual approach. The time he spends scanning for the traffic throughout the flight however is totally logable. If you are in IMC though, he can't see any better than you outside, so he can't log it. The CFRs are convuluted and change often, so if you've got a reference I'm all for learning something new.

 

[TheFlyingTurkey]

Well, we had our ground school final today, 100 questions on the CRJ-200 systems. I passed and nothing was asked that wasn't covered, so no surprises. Well, a well deserved weekend off awaits me...

I'll be spending it with my girl in Fort Lauderdale, then back on Monday for our first flight in the CRJ-200 FTD. I have all weekend to memorize the flows. I'll be in the left seat for the first 5 missions, then we swap. Should be fun, I'll let you all know how it goes.

The Turk.

 

[TheFlyingTurkey]

Well, ACE is going well. The FTD is a blast to fly, but it is a lot of work. We started doing missed approaches, V1 engine fire's, flame out, single engine approach and landings. And I flew an approach with stand-by instruments only, (PFD, MFD, and EICAS all out.) Four more sessions and we have the evaluation flight next Friday.

The Turk.

 

[TheFlyingTurkey]

I had my last flight in the CRJ-200 FTD on Friday, the "check ride". It was molded after an actual airline check ride. Start off with a normal takeoff, climb up to initial altitude, then we had an inflight system failure, (in this case both packs failed, causing loss of pressurization) We returned to our departure airport (Atlanta) and shot a normal ILS to minimums, went missed, returned and shot the LOC only and did a normal landing. Then we did two more takeoffs, the first was a duct overheat warning, after 80 kts, so we aborted takeoff. The second was a engine fire at V1, we continued the takeoff, did the engine fire memory items, ran the QRH (quick reference handbook) and returned to the airport single engine, and landed. And that was just the first half of the flight. I was pilot flying, and then for the second half, I was pilot not flying, and we did another flight, where the other pilot flew and was graded.
So I did pretty well. ACE is finished, and I will be starting commercial ground school on Monday morning. Was ACE worth the $7000. I probably couldn't answer that accurately until I get hired on at an airline, and go through initial training. But from what I have heard from my own cousin (ACA captain) ACE is a good idea, and he wished he had some kind of training like that to help prepare him for initial training. I figure worst case I will be able to identify all the instruments and know my way around the cockpit, best case I will end up in a CRJ, and I will have a leg up on all the systems.
See you all in commercial ground!!
The Turk.

 

[casaosa]

Turk...congrats with ACE!!! Very good forum you have going on here, nice to hear some postive stuff once in a while!!! Come into work and tell me who you are....see ya Wednesday????

 

[TheFlyingTurkey]

Who are you?