The slowly death of General Aviation in the U.S.

WacoFan said:
Easy to find a Luscombe, Aeronca (Chiefs are generally cheaper than Champs), or Taylorcraft that would pencil well when compared to those rates. And, lots more fun as well. Hell, you could band together with one or two like-minded friends in your are and split a brand-new Legend Cub and be cheaper than those rates and have a great airplane.
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I've thought of that, as well.

Where I'm torn is in wanting an IFR platform. It's much cheaper to buy a VFR-only aircraft for recreational flying. The issue is that I'd likely use the airplane for business travel as well, and to do that, unless you're blessed with cooperating weather all the time, you need an IFR airplane, which means much more cost.

If I could find an IFR Citabria (one of the Bellanca flavors - wouldn't be able to afford one of the newer ones) that would be potentially ideal, or an IFR Vans taildragger with a modest cargo capacity. Hell, a Stinson would probably do the job, too.

But it's a daydreaming thing right now. You can get nice C150 Commuters for $21K easily, but that's not really what I WANT despite being an adequate airplane for the job.
 
killbilly said:
But it's a daydreaming thing right now. You can get nice C150 Commuters for $21K easily, but that's not really what I WANT despite being an adequate airplane for the job.
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Based on the many aircraft owners I've talked to, and my personal aircraft ownership experience, I strongly recommend buying less airplane than you think you "need". I've lost count of how many people I know bought airplanes they think they "needed", rarely flew them due to the cost, and sold them two years later... while the people I know right now who fly a lot have actually downgraded. I recently did a BFR for a guy who flies a turbo Mooney all over the place, AFTER he sold his Aerostar that was costing him a small fortune to maintain...
 
rframe said:
Based on the many aircraft owners I've talked to, and my personal aircraft ownership experience, I strongly recommend buying less airplane than you think you "need". I've lost count of how many people I know bought airplanes they think they "needed", rarely flew them due to the cost, and sold them two years later... while the people I know right now who fly a lot have actually downgraded. I recently did a BFR for a guy who flies a turbo Mooney all over the place, AFTER he sold his Aerostar that was costing him a small fortune to maintain...
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Yes - you are 100% correct. In fact, I'd wager that that's not just true of airplanes. You can make the same argument about guitars and golf clubs, too. :)

That being said, the differences between owning a "fun" taildragger and a stable IFR platform are apples and oranges, you know? Two different missions. The question, really, is which is more important to me, since I would (and this is all theoretical) only have the funds for one of the two unless I got really lucky and found a cheap "fun" taildragger that was also IFR. :)
 
killbilly said:
Yes - you are 100% correct. In fact, I'd wager that that's not just true of airplanes. You can make the same argument about guitars and golf clubs, too. :)

That being said, the differences between owning a "fun" taildragger and a stable IFR platform are apples and oranges, you know? Two different missions. The question, really, is which is more important to me, since I would (and this is all theoretical) only have the funds for one of the two unless I got really lucky and found a cheap "fun" taildragger that was also IFR. :)
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Cessna 180
Piper Pacer (WAY overlooked. Huge value. Fun, relatively fast taildragger. Will outperform a 172 for WAY less).
Stinson 108 series
Beech Staggerwing
Howard DGA-15
 
WacoFan said:
Cessna 180
Piper Pacer (WAY overlooked. Huge value. Fun, relatively fast taildragger. Will out perform a 172 fornny yo WAY less).
Stinson 108 series
Beech Staggerwing
Howard DGA-15
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Funny you mention the Pacer....I found one for sale recently that looked quite nice. I don't know anything about them, though.

I've never flown a 180 or a 140 - curious about those.

But I've never seen ANY of them kitted out for IFR. I'm not saying they aren't out there, just that I haven't seen any.
 
killbilly said:
Funny you mention the Pacer....I found one for sale recently that looked quite nice. I don't know anything about them, though.

I've never flown a 180 or a 140 - curious about those.

But I've never seen ANY of them kitted out for IFR. I'm not saying they aren't out there, just that I haven't seen any.
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180's are basically cool 182's and many of them are IFR capable. Pacers are good airplanes. Better than a 172.
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/aircraft/pilot-reports/piper/improbable-pacer.html
 
Pacers currently for sale range from $16k for a tired looking, but good engine time airplane to $39k for a freshly covered, mid-time engine example. Those are the two extremes. I've decided killbilly, the Pacer is what you need. Higher useful load than a 172, faster, cheaper, and the cool tailwheel. Let me know your plans to proceed.
 
WacoFan said:
Pacers currently for sale range from $16k for a tired looking, but good engine time airplane to $39k for a freshly covered, mid-time engine example. Those are the two extremes. I've decided killbilly, the Pacer is what you need. Higher useful load than a 172, faster, cheaper, and the cool tailwheel. Let me know your plans to proceed.
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Well, I definitely won't be able to afford a 180, but maybe a Pacer. Someday. :)
 
As you can tell by my avatar I'd go with the Stinson. We've had ours about ten years. The last couple it's flown less since my dad lost his medical. I've been flying to much at work to fly much at home. But it's a GREAT airplane and even better value. Don't be scared of the Franklin engines, you can still get parts and find plenty of people to work on them. If you truly wanted an IFR machine, I'd by a VFR Stinson and slowly build a panel I wanted, and there's plenty of room. It's such a nice flying airplane, and handles even better on the ground. Almost shouldn't be called a tail dragger, almost. The mains are individual air/oil struts, so they absorb a harsh landing great, it can feel like a ad landing on the inside, but from a spectator view it looks like you greased it on. If you do look for one get a 108-2 or -3. The - 1 has fifteen less horse power, 150 vs. 165 and doesn't have a baggage door. However there are some -1's that were converted to -2's, ours is. The -3 is just like a -2 except it has a much bigger vertical stabilizer.

As mentioned prior, Pacers's are really nice airplanes as well. A bit of trivia, Piper actually bought Stinson to put them out of business and the last few complete Stinson's were sold as Piper's. Stinson also had the Apache on paper when they were bought by Piper. I think Piper tweaked a few things but they basiclly built the Stinson version and called t it the Apache.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
I spent a couple months looking for a Stinson 10A/105, and just couldn't find any.
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My old man had one when we lived in Seattle—I forget specifically as I was a wee lad, but my fascination with flying is entirely that airplane's (and the 727's, not to ruin the GA 'vibe' here) fault.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
My old man had one when we lived in Seattle—I forget specifically as I was a wee lad, but my fascination with flying is entirely that airplane's (and the 727's, not to ruin the GA 'vibe' here) fault.
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Yeah. Someday, I'll find a nice 10A or 105, with documented CAP history and paint it up in the WWII CAP colors. Take it to the airshows and get warbird parking on a budget.
 
This thread has many good responses in which many are true. Some pilots mention learning to fly in the 70's whereas I am part of that group. I really did not see a problem with the rental rates for the first two years after I got my private. I was hanging out at my local airport in which a insurance adjuster made a remark to me about the reason rental cost were going to rise at our flying club and other aviation businesses. It turns out a private owner of a Mooney landed his airplane gear up, bear in mind this aircraft was not part of the aircraft in our livery. I will mention the airplane I took my private pilot checkride in was ran out of gas and totaled out the year before. This was 1979 and 1980, after that rental fees for general aviation aircraft were off to the races, product liability was another issue, other operational cost of this hobby, and finally too many regulations will sink any operation for profit or non-profit. I can remember when US automakers claimed they could not make a inexpensive fuel efficient car, look where they are now. If general aviation fails in this country I expect another country will take up the slack as we fall further behind once again. Fly safe all!!
 
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