The Purpose of An Aviator

[Boris Badenov]

In my experience, pilots come in two basic breeds. Those who saw the glossy pamphlet with lots of buttons to push and thought "this will make me a credible human being and, if the movies are to be believed, get me some chicks", and those who saw adventure, uncertain outcomes, the chance to be the, if you'll pardon the expression, "pilot" of your own destiny, far away from the depressing realities of modern living. Sadly (from my perspective), it's the former who are delighted with what they've done, and the later who are left, penniless, wondering what the heck happened. I'm reminded of an article I read on the MU-2, years ago (yes, for me, everything in Creation comes back to the MU-2...it's true).

Dick Allan, president of Internet Jet Sales, a well-known MU-2B
broker in the Northeast United States, says the aircraft’s jet-like
performance has special appeal to a special set of pilots, ones who are
notably different from those who fly more matronly turboprops. He
likens the aircraft to "a stanine test that separates fighter jocks
from bomber pilots."

Now, with apologies to the mil guys (bomber or fighter), because comparing civilian pilots who fly one plane or another to military pilots is genuinely disrespectful to people who get shot at whatever they fly, I think he's basically on to something here. Some of us got in to this gig because it seemed faintly dangerous. Not like "do a tour in Iraq" dangerous, but more like "Me vs. Machine can I do it" dangerous. The simple truth is that those days are over, for all long-term career intents and purposes. Some of us will breathe a sigh of relief. Some will admit the sense in it whilst secretly wishing it weren't so. Regardless, that's the future. You may like it and relish all the shiny buttons over which you are now Lord and Commander. Others of us may feel like we were sold a bill of goods and long for the days of "ballparking it" and scaring yourself silly, because that was "the Juice". What we want, or miss, or feel we "really are" doesn't matter. The truth is that we are risk managers with an excellent office view. I've made my peace with that. I suggest that if you don't want to be deeply disappointed, you do the same. You can't fight Progress any more than you can fight City Hall. Such is life.

 

[A Life Aloft]

You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. We each see things differently. Why is that such a big deal?

This is like debating if working as an accountant would be satisfying or not. There is no right or wrong. It all depends on the individual. The original poster wrote about an aviator's desire to push the limits. I agreed and said I don't see that happening in the 121 work environment. Obviously you disagree. This isn't personal, it's just two different perspectives. Let's let it go at that.

This is exactly what you stated: "I think this post proves why most 121 airline pilots aren't, and can't be, satisfied by their jobs. It's routine. Safe. Predictable. Ick." And you consider 121 flying to be "boring". How would you know this? Perhaps you would care to share your mind reading skills ala the Amazing Kreskin with the rest of us. You also stated, "I don't see that happening in the 121 work environment." So, because you "don't see" something, (something you have never done) therefore it does not exist. Interesting.

Your persepctive is based not on your experience, or your first hand knowledge. It's based on some friends at some Regionals whining about THEIR jobs, yet you presume to speak for most airline pilots. You have no idea what you are talking about in regards to "most" airline pilots in general and their job satifsfaction. I have tried to explain in vain, why your statement is so ludicrous and you still don't get it. You think it's a matter of "opinion" instead of actual experience and knowledge. But then you also believe that flying a T210 to SAN is "pioneering new ground", much like Amelia Earhart. Okey dokey.

 

[Boris Badenov]

In a futile attempt to referee the thingie-sizing contest here, I'd add just this: You can do a job that is relatively low-threat to the best of your ability. Not get bored, not become a "remember-when". We all know them. Heck, I've been one of them more often than I'd like to admit. I did my time doing relatively (to other civilian flying) dangerous stuff in bare-bones airplanes in terrible weather. I thought I was going to die a number of times that won't fit on one hand (that's how we count, isn't it?). That said, what I'm paid to do now is manage a much lower level of danger in a much more capable airplane. Do I miss the Juice? Of course I do. Do I think that my longing for the Juice is more important than the safety and comfort of the people who are paying a lot of money for me to get them where they're going? No, I most emphatically don't. It always puzzles me that pilots, especially, think that their job is supposed to be about their personal satisfaction, rather than that of the people who are paying them. I'll always miss being what passes for a hardass amongst pilots (bunch of nancies, myself included), but I'll never foist my "lost glory" upon a paying passenger who just wants to get from A to B with a minimum of fuss (or danger). We're in a Service industry. Let's try to Serve.

 

[zmiller4]

For those of us in aviation, you might suppose that most of us are of a similar nature. I certainly do. Given that, I'm going to speak to the majority of us here by addressing us all as 'aviators' and will leave it at that.[/IMG]

I'll be the negative nancy here. I think you lose credibility when you start off by pigeonholing a huge number of people as having "a similar nature." The FAA lists over 250,000 commercial/ATP pilots, and to categorize pilots based on a preconceived notion of their personalities isn't all that different than assuming we're all white males between the ages of 24 and 56 because that's the dominant demographic. We all have our own reasons for getting into aviation, and I would never assume that someone else's match up with mine.

I think that asking folks "what is *your* purpose as an aviator" may be a more productive route than telling us why we fly--because your initial post came across to me as a little preachy.

 

[cmill]

In my experience, pilots come in two basic breeds. Those who saw the glossy pamphlet with lots of buttons to push and thought "this will make me a credible human being and, if the movies are to be believed, get me some chicks", and those who saw adventure, uncertain outcomes, the chance to be the, if you'll pardon the expression, "pilot" of your own destiny, far away from the depressing realities of modern living. Sadly (from my perspective), it's the former who are delighted with what they've done, and the later who are left, penniless, wondering what the heck happened. I'm reminded of an article I read on the MU-2, years ago (yes, for me, everything in Creation comes back to the MU-2...it's true).



[/SIZE]Now, with apologies to the mil guys (bomber or fighter), because comparing civilian pilots who fly one plane or another to military pilots is genuinely disrespectful to people who get shot at whatever they fly, I think he's basically on to something here. Some of us got in to this gig because it seemed faintly dangerous. Not like "do a tour in Iraq" dangerous, but more like "Me vs. Machine can I do it" dangerous. The simple truth is that those days are over, for all long-term career intents and purposes. Some of us will breathe a sigh of relief. Some will admit the sense in it whilst secretly wishing it weren't so. Regardless, that's the future. You may like it and relish all the shiny buttons over which you are now Lord and Commander. Others of us may feel like we were sold a bill of goods and long for the days of "ballparking it" and scaring yourself silly, because that was "the Juice". What we want, or miss, or feel we "really are" doesn't matter. The truth is that we are risk managers with an excellent office view. I've made my peace with that. I suggest that if you don't want to be deeply disappointed, you do the same. You can't fight Progress any more than you can fight City Hall. Such is life.

Well put. I think there are pilots who still seek out the "excitement factor," but they get labeled as dangerous cowboys by others, so for the most part they keep their mouth shut for fear of being ridiculed. There are seat of your pants non nancy jobs out there, but sadly, it seems most would rather stick with the jet for the chicks.

 

[FL900]

There are seat of your pants non nancy jobs out there, but sadly, it seems most would rather stick with the jet for the chicks.

Another sweeping generalization. Do you think maybe some of us stick with the jet for the better money? Or maybe we actually like flying a jet. Or maybe we shy away from more risky flying because we have families, and we feel that we owe it to them to stay safe and come home at the end of a day. Maybe there are some of us who value some things more than the thrill of "seat of your pants non nancy jobs". There's nothing sad about that, and it doesn't make us less of an aviator than you.

I'll tell you one thing. If I were the multi-millionaire interviewing pilots to fly my family around in my jet, I would absolutely pass on anyone who I even thought was in it for the "excitement factor".

 

[cmill]

Another sweeping generalization. Do you think maybe some of us stick with the jet for the better money? Or maybe we actually like flying a jet. Or maybe we shy away from more risky flying because we have families, and we feel that we owe it to them to stay safe and come home at the end of a day. Maybe there are some of us who value some things more than the thrill of "seat of your pants non nancy jobs". There's nothing sad about that, and it doesn't make us less of an aviator than you.

I'll tell you one thing. If I were the multi-millionaire interviewing pilots to fly my family around in my jet, I would absolutely pass on anyone who I even thought was in it for the "excitement factor".

That would be your prerogative. I never said anything about anyone being less of an aviator. The spirit of the thread was about pioneering and adventure, and the romanticism that came with the early days of flying, Going across the Atlantic with nothing but a compass and big brass balls. Do what makes you happy. This isnt a pissing contest.

After flying a jet, i can guarantee you i would never do it for the excitement factor. Thats why i stick with floats. I love what i do, as im sure people who fly the jets do. I think the spirit of the thread was about how some of the unadventurous pioneering has been lost with all the technological advances and people who are doing this for the love of money, instead of the love of flying.

You got me, i dont make jet money, and i dont really care. I make enough to pay the bills, and im doing something that makes me happy. Thats really all i care about. Sorry if that offends you.

 

[Firebird2XC]

I'll be the negative nancy here. I think you lose credibility when you start off by pigeonholing a huge number of people as having "a similar nature." The FAA lists over 250,000 commercial/ATP pilots, and to categorize pilots based on a preconceived notion of their personalities isn't all that different than assuming we're all white males between the ages of 24 and 56 because that's the dominant demographic. We all have our own reasons for getting into aviation, and I would never assume that someone else's match up with mine.

I think that asking folks "what is *your* purpose as an aviator" may be a more productive route than telling us why we fly--because your initial post came across to me as a little preachy.

I was mostly just looking for common ground to address the masses. Splitting hairs about target demographics might be nice for statistical analysis, but I was soap boxing raw ideas, so that wasn't really my intention. Isn't the point of pioneering to ask the question about where you're going next, and why? There, I asked it in question form now. Have a nice day.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Well put. I think there are pilots who still seek out the "excitement factor," but they get labeled as dangerous cowboys by others, so for the most part they keep their mouth shut for fear of being ridiculed. There are seat of your pants non nancy jobs out there, but sadly, it seems most would rather stick with the jet for the chicks.

The idea of pioneer spirit isn't really about excitement for the sake of excitement. It's about accepting that there is some degree of inherent risk required in order to operate in our given day to day, and to move beyond in the interest of innovation requires a little extra initiative. Many have allowed their daily status quo to dilute that sense of initiative.

Your stance on jet flying seems a little ad hominem. Do you have some sort of animosity towards jet operators? There are certain appeals to that type of flying, you know. When the temperatures are extreme, an APU really makes a difference in the kind of day you might have,for example. It's not all about the SJS/cool factor.

 

[jrh]

This is exactly what you stated: "I think this post proves why most 121 airline pilots aren't, and can't be, satisfied by their jobs. It's routine. Safe. Predictable. Ick." And you consider 121 flying to be "boring". How would you know this? Perhaps you would care to share your mind reading skills ala the Amazing Kreskin with the rest of us. You also stated, "I don't see that happening in the 121 work environment." So, because you "don't see" something, (something you have never done) therefore it does not exist. Interesting.

Wow. I don't even know where to start with this.

You're taking every little detail of what I said and blowing it up into something huge. I never meant it that way and I'm sorry that's how you interpreted it. Chill out.

I never presumed to speak for all 121 airline pilots in every airline across the globe. I made a statement based on my experiences talking with 121 pilots and observations I've made.

Do you seriously expect a person to have a lifetime of experience with something before they're allowed to hold an opinion on it? What if I went to work at a 121 airline for a few years, came back and said, "Yeah, it's boring, just like I expected,"? Would that mean my opinion is suddenly valid? Or would you say, "No, no, you need to stick it out longer, you're still short on time, once you get more experience, you'll love it?"

It sounds like you expect everyone to have personally done something before commenting on it. Give me a break.

Your persepctive is based not on your experience, or your first hand knowledge. It's based on some friends at some Regionals whining about THEIR jobs, yet you presume to speak for most airline pilots. You have no idea what you are talking about in regards to "most" airline pilots in general and their job satifsfaction.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never spoke *for* airline pilots. I gave my opinion of why I don't think most airline pilots are very satisfied by their jobs. The two are very different things.

Now, if you're disagreeing with the assertion that most airline pilots aren't satisfied by their jobs, we'll have to agree to disagree. That's a debate neither of us will ever conclusively prove.

I have tried to explain in vain, why your statement is so ludicrous and you still don't get it. You think it's a matter of "opinion" instead of actual experience and knowledge. But then you also believe that flying a T210 to SAN is "pioneering new ground", much like Amelia Earhart. Okey dokey.

Holy cow. Are you serious? I wasn't even going to reply to your post until I read this line.

Where did I say flying a T210 to San Diego is pioneering new ground like Amelia Earhart? That's ridiculous.

I used an example from my recent work experience to show why I really, really enjoy my job. I get to have a ton of variety. I got to fly a plane I hadn't flown before, on a route I hadn't flown before, to some destinations I hadn't flown to before. And I get to do that sort of thing on a regular basis. Not too long ago I realized I'd flown 8 different aircraft types...on one logbook page. I also calculated I've flown 40+ aircraft types in my relatively short career.

I'm not saying it's cheating death or any kind of rocket science. I'm saying it's a heck of a lot of fun, mostly because I get to do things that are *new to me*. It gives a taste of the excitement our true aviation pioneers must have felt, even if other people have done it a thousand times before. That means a lot to me. I don't see how I could get that sort of day to day "newness" if I flew for an airline. Apparently you were able to, and that's fantastic. Unfortunately I don't often run in to people like yourself who have, and are, enjoying it so much.



For what it's worth, I've been writing on this forum for five years now. Most people know I'm not a moron, even if we disagree on a few issues. Hopefully over time you'll see the same.

 

[RICHARD5]

I honestly thought this thread out of all the threads spread across the internet would succeed by staying on topic. I now understand how pretentious and provencial my desire was. I beg your forgiveness of my silliness.

 

[Ian_J]

For what it's worth, I've been writing on this forum for five years now. Most people know I'm not a moron, even if we disagree on a few issues. Hopefully over time you'll see the same.

I only wanted to comment to let you know you are not crazy, jrh - we all see what's going on here. You have a very professional and sensible history here and you are totally being misread by one random new guy.

 

[Speed Pilot]

Great post Charlie! Well worth publication. Boris, good adendum. A Life Aloft, wtf?! jrh, you're cool man. I get what you're saying and you're being misinterpreted.
To everyone else, Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night, tip your waitress, have your pets spayed and neutered and try the veal(sp?).

 

[dustoff17]

Everybody Lies.

No I don't!

Oh.....O.K I take that back

 

[Polar742]

FWIW, I read jrh's post in the same way A Life Aloft did.

Both A Life Aloft and FL900 have summed up my thoughts on this subject quite well.

I'd say the pioneering spirit out at Scaled Composites and other similar companies is alive and well. However, if we were still pioneering, we wouldn't enjoy the ability to hop in whatever type of plane we fly, and journey across a county, country, continent or ocean with the relative ease we do today.

 

[dasleben]

FWIW, I read jrh's post in the same way A Life Aloft did.

Both A Life Aloft and FL900 have summed up my thoughts on this subject quite well.

Agreed. Lots of big, sweeping generalizations in this thread about 121 jet flying. I'm afraid some people just think it's all ILSs to Raleigh-Durham. I wouldn't call flying a VOR approach into Torreon, Mexico at night in a dust storm anywhere near "routine."

 

[jrh]

Lots of big, sweeping generalizations in this thread about 121 jet flying. I'm afraid some people just think it's all ILSs to Raleigh-Durham.

Fair enough. I'm open to other possibilities. I don't mean to make broad generalizations, I'm just relating what I see in my day to day interactions with pilots from all segments of the industry. If 121 pilots never mention anything other than flying ILSes into MSP, what am I supposed to think?

Why do you (the rhetorical "you", not you personally) suppose 121 pilots don't talk about these experiences much? As I've said before, I consistently hear bitching about pay and QOL from 121 pilots. Very rarely do I hear a, "This was so cool, you shoulda been there..." type of story. When I do hear those stories, it's usually in reference to something they did flying GA outside of the airline environment. The DPE I send most of my clients to is a United 757/767 FO. When he comes to give a checkride, he'll talk my ear off about flying gliders and Bonanzas on his days off, but doesn't have much interest in telling about his trips across the pond.

Maybe the "pioneering spirit" is what keeps a lot airline pilots going internally, but other troubles overshadow their outward expressions of why they ultimately keep doing the job? I don't know.

 

[MikeD]

I wouldn't call flying a VOR approach into Torreon, Mexico at night in a dust storm anywhere near "routine."

Thats damn near a precision approach in good WX, as compared to a night ASR-only, with no other pilot-nav backup, approach in rain/snow; circling under NVGs to a runway with no REILs/PAPIs/VASIs or any other overt lighting at all......just the 1st 1000' lit with covert edge lights, which are near impossible to see since they're dim and blend in with all the other lighting all over the field thus washing out the NVGs. Oh, and while circling under NVGs you have zero peripheral vision and fighting to not allow the vertigo from flying while looking with your neck cranked-around over your shoulder cause you to roll into the ground as you perform the circle. And the field with looming terrain around it. And people that don't like you in bad ways are just outside the perimeter. And all in a single-seat attack jet, no crew to depend on.

A night VOR approach in a dust storm to some field in Mexico in a two-crew cockpit jet with automation, and an approach you can actually self-navigate on, would be a welcome Sunday walk in the park.

It's all perspective. To me and with the ops I've done and still do, 121 airline flying is seen as cake, even though the people doing that kind of flying have their own challenges and things/situations they deem dangerous or not and to varying degrees.

It's all perspective. And I see both sides of the argument here in this one. Both sides are right, in their own ways.

.......even if the other side are a bunch of spikey-hair, backpack and ipod wearing, foo-foo latte drinking, Ramen eating, contract complaining, dollars-lacking, ride report requesting, frequency blabbing, pilots.

 

[dasleben]

Thats damn near a precision approach in good WX, as compared to a night ASR-only, with no other pilot-nav backup, approach in rain/snow; circling under NVGs to a runway with no REILs/PAPIs/VASIs or any other overt lighting at all......just the 1st 1000' lit with covert edge lights, which are near impossible to see since they're dim and blend in with all the other lighting all over the field thus washing out the NVGs. Oh, and while circling under NVGs you have zero peripheral vision and fighting to not allow the vertigo from flying while looking with your neck cranked-around over your shoulder cause you to roll into the ground as you perform the circle. And the field with looming terrain around it. And people that don't like you in bad ways are just outside the perimeter. And all in a single-seat attack jet, no crew to depend on.

A night VOR approach in a dust storm to some field in Mexico in a two-crew cockpit jet with automation, and an approach you can actually self-navigate on, would be a welcome Sunday walk in the park.

It's all perspective. To me and with the ops I've done and still do, 121 airline flying is seen as cake, even though the people doing that kind of flying have their own challenges and things/situations they deem dangerous or not and to varying degrees.

It's all perspective. And I see both sides of the argument here in this one. Both sides are right, in their own ways.

.......even if the other side are a bunch of spikey-hair, backpack and ipod wearing, foo-foo latte drinking, Ramen eating, contract complaining, dollars-lacking, ride report requesting, frequency blabbing, pilots.

You're just jealous of the foot and shoulder heaters.

 

[MikeD]

You're just jealous of the foot and shoulder heaters.

See? Someone who understands the big picture here........ :clap:

And yes, there are many times I'd love to have the heater!