The Power of No; Difficult Decision Making

knot4u said:
There is also the flip side of the coin, Pilots that write up airworthy aircraft to suit their schedule or desires. It's amazing how many airplanes break in vacation spots or the day before Christmas and Thanksgiving and the squawks can't be duplicated. I had an air ambulance pilot from Scottsdale write up his lear every time he came to KVNY, coincidentally his girlfriend lived in Santa Monica.
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After ~8000 hours of 121 time I've never witnessed something like that, ever, either as an FO or CA.

I'm not saying it hasn't ever happened, but it's got to be pretty rare. Nowhere near how often mx tries to push us into taking an aircraft back to base.
 
wheelsup said:
After ~8000 hours of 121 time I've never witnessed something like that, ever, either as an FO or CA.

I'm not saying it hasn't ever happened, but it's got to be pretty rare. Nowhere near how often mx tries to push us into taking an aircraft back to base.
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It does happen, I was on call for a certain large 135 at KVNY one lovely Christmas morning when a call came that a lear wouldn't transfer fuel to the fuselage tank from the wings. When I got there the airplane functioned perfectly.
Including the ops check, doing the paperwork, releasing the aircraft and informing the charter dept the plane was ready my Christmas was effectively ruined. I hope the pilot enjoyed his.
 
Luigi said:
I sit next to MX ctrl everyday in dispatch. I have found them to be as safety and legality driven as any other employee in the OCC. I think they do fantastic work, and the ones I've met all seem to take the responsibility of their job, and the lives of the passengers on board extremely seriously.
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Life is commonly a little bit different when you're the one that actually operates the aircraft.
 
I had to read the article to make sure I wasn't the "Monster at AMF"! Not me. Whew!
:cool:

I remember the author. Really good dude. Glad his career is going well.

I have a well-rehearsed speech for these situations. Fortunately, I've never had to use it (Pt121):
"You don't pay me to fly the plane. You pay me to know enough to tell you when we can't do this under these conditions".
 
Very good article and sage wisdom, but as many posts have pointed out, it definitely depends on the judgment and airmanship of the one choosing to say "no".
 
Luigi said:
I sit next to MX ctrl everyday in dispatch. I have found them to be as safety and legality driven as any other employee in the OCC. I think they do fantastic work, and the ones I've met all seem to take the responsibility of their job, and the lives of the passengers on board extremely seriously.
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I have been a dispatcher in the Air Force, as well as my primary position as a mission pilot.

I can say without hesitation that, although I put every bit of earnest effort into planning a mission that someone else was going to fly, ultimately I didn't have as much skin in the game as the guy whose pink butt was actually going to be executing my plan.
 
I was terminated as a 12 year flight instructor for raising cain about maintenance issues. The weak knee'ed chief instructor for the location had zero maintenance experience and was incapable of standing up to the owner when issues were raised. Flights were cancelled regularly and the aircraft were in a deteriorating state.

As an example, three aircraft were VFR only due to each having a different gyro instrument removed and sent off for maintenance. This led to a 6 week IFR training down time and several students were delayed check rides and otherwise progressing in their course of study.

One aircraft, the "flagship" of the fleet had holes in the headset liner over the rear seat! Only one of two events could have caused this occurrence: severe turbulence in flight, or, a really poorly executed negative G-push over. In either case, the aircraft and wing attach fittings should have been inspected for any unseen damage! No action was taken and the aircraft continued in service.

The thing that amazed me was the chief pilot actually put this in the termination letter!

Dear Michael,

Your employment with Aviation Adventures is terminated effective 3 February, 2015. Please return your office key and security access card to the Leesburg office.

This action is the result of your behavior in the Leesburg offices over the past several weekends when you became extremely angry over maintenance issues. While I understand your concerns and frustrations, such displays in our office during business hours is completely unacceptable.

Michael G. Gilbert Chief Flight Instructor (KJYO)​

If you are pushed to do something that you feel is wrong or unsafe, and those over you are disregarding your feelings and intuition about the situation, save your ass and get out of there as soon as possible. Do not allow others ineptness to make you a statistic!

Am I worried about this affecting my future employment? Not at all!
 
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flyslow_va said:
I was terminated as a 12 year flight instructor for raising cain about maintenance issues. The weak knee'ed chief instructor for the location had zero maintenance experience and was incapable of standing up to the owner when issues were raised. Flights were cancelled regularly and the aircraft were in a deteriorating state.

As an example, three aircraft were VFR only due to each having a different gyro instrument removed and sent off for maintenance. This led to a 6 week IFR training down time and several students were delayed check rides and otherwise progressing in their course of study.

One aircraft, the "flagship" of the fleet had holes in the headset liner over the rear seat! Only one of two events could have caused this occurrence: severe turbulence in flight, or, a really poorly executed negative G-push over. In either case, the aircraft and wing attach fittings should have been inspected for any unseen damage! No action was taken and the aircraft continued in service.

The thing that amazed me was the chief pilot actually put this in the termination letter!

Dear Michael,

Your employment with Aviation Adventures is terminated effective 3 February, 2015. Please return your office key and security access card to the Leesburg office.

This action is the result of your behavior in the Leesburg offices over the past several weekends when you became extremely angry over maintenance issues. While I understand your concerns and frustrations, such displays in our office during business hours is completely unacceptable.

Michael G. Gilbert Chief Flight Instructor (KJYO)​

If you are pushed to do something that you feel is wrong or unsafe, and those over you are disregarding your feelings and intuition about the situation, save your ass and get out of there as soon as possible. Do not allow others ineptness to make you a statistic!

Am I worried about this affecting my future employment? Not at all!
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I mean, to be fair, those aren't the only thing that can cause holes in the headset liner.
 
ppragman said:
I mean, to be fair, those aren't the only thing that can cause holes in the headset liner.
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Agreed, but when you see the damage, it is fairly obvious what happened.
IMAG0031_BURST002_zpsifbicoij.jpg
 
flyslow_va said:
I was terminated as a 12 year flight instructor for raising cain about maintenance issues. The weak knee'ed chief instructor for the location had zero maintenance experience and was incapable of standing up to the owner when issues were raised. Flights were cancelled regularly and the aircraft were in a deteriorating state.

As an example, three aircraft were VFR only due to each having a different gyro instrument removed and sent off for maintenance. This led to a 6 week IFR training down time and several students were delayed check rides and otherwise progressing in their course of study.

One aircraft, the "flagship" of the fleet had holes in the headset liner over the rear seat! Only one of two events could have caused this occurrence: severe turbulence in flight, or, a really poorly executed negative G-push over. In either case, the aircraft and wing attach fittings should have been inspected for any unseen damage! No action was taken and the aircraft continued in service.

The thing that amazed me was the chief pilot actually put this in the termination letter!

Dear Michael,

Your employment with Aviation Adventures is terminated effective 3 February, 2015. Please return your office key and security access card to the Leesburg office.

This action is the result of your behavior in the Leesburg offices over the past several weekends when you became extremely angry over maintenance issues. While I understand your concerns and frustrations, such displays in our office during business hours is completely unacceptable.

Michael G. Gilbert Chief Flight Instructor (KJYO)​

If you are pushed to do something that you feel is wrong or unsafe, and those over you are disregarding your feelings and intuition about the situation, save your ass and get out of there as soon as possible. Do not allow others ineptness to make you a statistic!

Am I worried about this affecting my future employment? Not at all!
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Wow. I'm kinda surprised by that. I rented from their JYO and HEF locations for a couple of years and never ever had gripes or concerns with MX there - they ally seemed to take really good care of the airplanes. I've also known a number of instructors there and none have ever been that worried to my knowledge.

The letter said it was about behavior. Did you have a meltdown in front of a customer?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
The reality is, things on the surface that are not right are indicative of things internal that are also not right. Worn does not mean unairworthy nor does it mean neglected There is a difference and that's my point. Cutting corners is fairly typical, and in some cases can be beneficial to an organization, but when it affects the operation and students and the organization's goals are affected, then it can create a bad environment and the potential for an accident.

With the cost of flying being what it is, and with the decline in student starts, and with discretionary funds declining, would you rent a car that looked like this? Then why would we want to rent aircraft that look like this either? While a fresh paint job raises as many questions in my mind, what perhaps is being covered up, neglected aircraft scream neglect to me. Now having said that, an old faded paint job while not pretty certainly shows an aircraft's age, but a closer inspection can let a potential renter know the true mechanical condition of the aircraft. Oil streaks on the belly, spots under the tie downs, buckled skins or patches. It all adds up to a company image and how others perceive your operation. And the reality is, a first impression is very difficult to change.
IMAG0032_zpsxqxw6zc0.jpg
IMAG0033_zpsw4g7hkaf.jpg
IMAG0034_zps4plsugvl.jpg
 
killbilly said:
Wow. I'm kinda surprised by that. I rented from their JYO and HEF locations for a couple of years and never ever had gripes or concerns with MX there - they ally seemed to take really good care of the airplanes. I've also known a number of instructors there and none have ever been that worried to my knowledge.

The letter said it was about behavior. Did you have a meltdown in front of a customer?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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I was 3 feet deep in the chief pilots ass for failing to address issues that were causing aircraft cancellations.
 
flyslow_va said:
The reality is, things on the surface that are not right are indicative of things internal that are also not right. Worn does not mean unairworthy nor does it mean neglected There is a difference and that's my point. Cutting corners is fairly typical, and in some cases can be beneficial to an organization, but when it affects the operation and students and the organization's goals are affected, then it can create a bad environment and the potential for an accident.

With the cost of flying being what it is, and with the decline in student starts, and with discretionary funds declining, would you rent a car that looked like this? Then why would we want to rent aircraft that look like this either? While a fresh paint job raises as many questions in my mind, what perhaps is being covered up, neglected aircraft scream neglect to me. Now having said that, an old faded paint job while not pretty certainly shows an aircraft's age, but a closer inspection can let a potential renter know the true mechanical condition of the aircraft. Oil streaks on the belly, spots under the tie downs, buckled skins or patches. It all adds up to a company image and how others perceive your operation. And the reality is, a first impression is very difficult to change.
IMAG0032_zpsxqxw6zc0.jpg
IMAG0033_zpsw4g7hkaf.jpg
IMAG0034_zps4plsugvl.jpg
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I think you've had an extraordinarily sheltered aviation career.
 
flyslow_va said:
Agreed, but when you see the damage, it is fairly obvious what happened.
IMAG0031_BURST002_zpsifbicoij.jpg
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I mean, not really, how hot does it get where you're at in the summer? Who uses the airplane? I've seen similar damage from people jamming rolly-bags into the back of airplanes.
 
I had confrontations from a mechanic at my instructing gig for not accepting a plane that wasn't legal to fly. "So let me get this straight, you're saying I fly it, and call it good so we don't cancel flight blocks, and I teach my student that it's perfectly acceptable to fly with required equipment that is inoperative... Rightttt Here's the write up." Followed up by an important debrief with my student about why being able to say no despite external pressures is important. I'm not going to lie, learning to say no was hard, but I've always felt better for saying no, and I never got burned for it. Even if I did get burned for it, it wouldn't bother me because I know I made the right/safe call. Since I've started flying 121 I've learned a LOT about the simple art of saying no even when it is the most unpopular and hated decision by rampers, gate agents, dispatchers, mechanics, regional controllers, flight attendants, and the passengers sitting behind you, but it was the completely right thing to do. Despite some of those hard decisions, we've had passengers tell us briefly "thanks for keeping us safe," as they board the new plane we had to swap into due to the other aircraft going tech. That's always a good feeling.
 
Hacker15e said:
I have been a dispatcher in the Air Force, as well as my primary position as a mission pilot.

I can say without hesitation that, although I put every bit of earnest effort into planning a mission that someone else was going to fly, ultimately I didn't have as much skin in the game as the guy whose pink butt was actually going to be executing my plan.
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I'm not quite sure you and jtrain understand the point I was making. I was simply saying that myself (in dispatch) and my coworkers at mx ctrl are safety minded. That's all I'm saying...we are not the bad guys I sometimes feel we are made out to be.
 
Toobdrvr said:
I have a well-rehearsed speech for these situations. Fortunately, I've never had to use it (Pt121):
"You don't pay me to fly the plane. You pay me to know enough to tell you when we can't do this under these conditions".
Click to expand...
I just cancelled a flight the other day with a new customer due to weather. My boss was giving me crap about it (jokingly), and I told him I'd rather impress our customers with my judgement than ballsy flying.
 
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