The mentality of a "Fast-Track" program and low time commercial airline pilots...

[SteveC]

SteveC, reading this thread:

...on second thought...

 

[Seggy]

No contradiction in my statement. I encourage EVERYONE to take advantage of the window. I did and did well with my opportunity. It is one of the best times ever to be a pilot. But, why not look back and see how we can make the whole process better along the way.

If flight schools paid the instructors more and treated the CFIs better, then they wouldn't be chopping at the bit to get to a regional. If regionals paid more, they could require more time for the pilots to be brought on forcing guys to build time for longer times. If the regionals paid more, then the majors need to as well. See how things roll uphill?

The bar has been lowered to much in the past few years.

Dugie, how can you say I am hypocritical? I clearly said...

"You simply do not have the experience at 300 to 500 hours to be flying around in a Jet or Turboprop 121 (if you train the civilian way). I was one of those guys! Looking back, I didn't have that experience at that time to fly the Beech 1900!"

I thought I did at that time. It was over 20 months ago. In those 20 months I learned a lot. Still have a lot of learning to do, but one thing I did learn is 500 hours is not enough time to be in a 121 cockpit. If you have the opportunity go for it. They will be out there. Just keep an open mind down the road. That is all I am saying.

While you sit on your high horse preaching something you obviously didn't practice, the rest of us have a choice to take a moral stand and stall our career another two years and watch people we finished our ratings with make captain before we see the cockpit of a jet, or we can do the logical thing. The thing any practical and pragmatic person would do, the thing you did, and get a job at a regional, build seniority and go.

Don't you dare tell me that I don't practice raising the bar buddy. If you look at my signature, see what I am doing.

So basically your point is "I got mine, now nobody else should get theirs?"

Look above.

You have selective reading, look what I fully wrote and you will see what I am saying.

 

[DE727UPS]

"ATP-Approved Examiners
We work with the same Designated Pilot Examiners (DPEs) day in and day out—they are familiar with our standardized training procedures and checklists. This relationship ensures a low-stress checkride, for which you will be extremely well prepared."

This is from a couple of pages ago, but I couldn't let it go.

As is so typical with big academy marketing, it's one of those statements that sounds so great to the uninformed (that's their market) and makes me, as an experienced pilot, cringe. Saying you use "special" examiners to give you a "worry free" checkride kinda does the opposite in my mind of what the advertising is trying to do. Of course, big school marketing is all about making money for said big school. They aren't reaching out to DE, who simply wants to see the highest qualified airline pilots entering this career. They are reaching out to people who have no clue.

So...how about a Jetcareers.com link at the ATP site to give balance to the advertising claims?

Oh....I don't know....but that's probably counterproductive to making money for the big academy. Not gonna happen.

It's just sad. There in no honor in selling this career. It's all just about making money. Get there fast... Seniority in everything... Don't waste time as a CFI...

 

[OldTownPilot]

So basically your point is "I got mine, now nobody else should get theirs?"

Segs has help a lot of people from this site with similar times to his. And would continue for people with the right attitude.

Like he said, "Don't hate the player, hate the game"

 

[bbjpilot]

Right on DE727UPS I Agree with you 100%. If only some people would listen to some of the experienced and successful aviators on this site. As DE727UPS eluded to it seems as if everybody is out to make money in this industry IMO. After all people like himself and other numerous others are giving valueable FREE FREE yes FREE advice. They are only looking out for the best interest of us with less experience or no experience and the future of our industry.

Thanks again DE727UPS , Meritflyer , Seggy , DOUG and all the rest for steering me in the right direction. I' am 19 and had a bad case of get me right seat quick before i came here. A real wake up call.

 

[meyers9163]

"ATP-Approved Examiners
We work with the same Designated Pilot Examiners (DPEs) day in and day out—they are familiar with our standardized training procedures and checklists. This relationship ensures a low-stress checkride, for which you will be extremely well prepared."

This is from a couple of pages ago, but I couldn't let it go.

As is so typical with big academy marketing, it's one of those statements that sounds so great to the uninformed (that's their market) and makes me, as an experienced pilot, cringe. Saying you use "special" examiners to give you a "worry free" checkride kinda does the opposite in my mind of what the advertising is trying to do. Of course, big school marketing is all about making money for said big school. They aren't reaching out to DE, who simply wants to see the highest qualified airline pilots entering this career. They are reaching out to people who have no clue.

So...how about a Jetcareers.com link at the ATP site to give balance to the advertising claims?

Oh....I don't know....but that's probably counterproductive to making money for the big academy. Not gonna happen.

It's just sad. There in no honor in selling this career. It's all just about making money. Get there fast... Seniority in everything... Don't waste time as a CFI...

Not following, were you mad that I posted this comment directly off the website as in many places do this or annoyed because they advertise it?

 

[Fly4Pay]

Cool, I just have noticed that you post from a somewhat different persepctive now vs. when you were just a regular member. Not at all knocking your post as a member.

Just digging your new perspective in posting as a moderator!

And the new avatar definitely lends a more "moderator-like" persona, wouldn't you say?

"Who's that?"

"Must be a king [or queen in this case!]."

"How can you tell?"

"He hasn't got s**t all over him...."

 

[Fly4Pay]

There is no pilot shortage. However there IS a shortage of people willing to do the work for the current benefits level.

There are fewer people willing to do the work for the menu of pay and benefits.

BRAVO! Give that man the kewpie doll....

Lots of guys in the military that'd love to fly a DC-9 for pre-2001 dollars, but when that DC-9 went to a regional at the regional wage/benefits structure and a lot of formerly high-paying major jobs took pay and benefit hits, why in the heck would they leave the USAF or a stable corporate job to fly for the passenger airlines?

They're not, so there's very little flow from what is traditionally at least 50% of the normal inflow of fresh meat into the industry.

Ah, a little love for us boys in blue--gotta love it! Seriously, if I weren't retiring (as opposed to just getting out before 20), I couldn't afford it. Even WITH the retirement pay, it's gonna be tough, and that's flying for a major. With a regional there would be no way.

(For those of you young twenty-somethings who can't fathom that, wait till you have a house, three kids, and debt to choke a horse... but I digress)

Doug's right--there is no pilot shortage. But it's much less worthwhile to be a pilot than it used to be, so people are moving on to other things. The pilots are there (OK, lots of them are), but they're doing other things--selling insurance, investing in real estate, designing software, whatever--that give them better pay and more stability.

The entire situation is a continuum (gotta love the "word a day" calendar). You can pay less, and get pilots that are willing to do it because they haven't spent much while losing those who feel it isn't worth it. Or you can up the pay, and those who now DO think it's worth it will leave the insurance/real estate/nerd business and come back to the cockpit. Don't believe me? How many NWA furloughees are coming back? Think that number would go up if they drastically increased the pay? Bet yer sweet bippy! It might not COMPLETELY solve the crunch, but you'd see flight training go nuts for a while for those trying to grab the brass ring.

As I've said before, I have a little different perspective than most, what with my military background and the fact that I'm a business owner. That gives me some experience (some of which I'd prefer not to have sometimes) in what it takes to run and staff a business. And I'm telling ya, pay more, and you WILL get more and better applicants for the job. Pay less, and you'll still get plenty of applicants, but as they say, you get what you pay for.

 

[CFIse]

Segs has help a lot of people from this site with similar times to his. And would continue for people with the right attitude.

Like he said, "Don't hate the player, hate the game"

I'm sure he/she is a great person - but what's next? When they make it to a mainline are they going to be posting all over here about how the regionals are a curse on the industry and should be eradicated, through lethal injection for the pilots involved if necessary?

It's easy to throw brickbats at the people behind you - especially if you see some personal gain for you in so doing. I'm not so sure the motives are as pure as the driven snow as they've been presented.

 

[Seggy]

I'm sure he/she is a great person - but what's next? When they make it to a mainline are they going to be posting all over here about how the regionals are a curse on the industry and should be eradicated, through lethal injection for the pilots involved if necessary?

It's easy to throw brickbats at the people behind you - especially if you see some personal gain for you in so doing. I'm not so sure the motives are as pure as the driven snow as they've been presented.

Ahhh, no.

Not enough people educating other professionals or those that want to be professional pilots out there. If we educate those then that will *hopefully* make our lives much easier as pilots.

Jetcareers does it, thank goodness.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Don't you dare tell me that I don't practice raising the bar buddy. If you look at my signature, see what I am doing.

Look above.

Look, I won't even pretend that I know you, or anything that you have done. All I know is that you went on a rant on ATP and "getthereitis", but changed the subject to toot your own horn (again), and now you have changed direction of the thread AGAIN by spouting off this "education" nonsense. No one is going to give you ANY credibility on this subject, since you did it yourself.

It doesn't matter how much you try to "educate" potential pilots and tell them what the industry is like. THEY DON'T CARE. They want to fly a jet, and will gladly PAY money to do it (Gulfstream). For every person that takes a moral stand, there are 10 that get on the jet and pass them by.

I am sure people in the medical profession don't go to the local nursing school and warn them how crappy their industry can be.

 

[jtrain609]

Look, I won't even pretend that I know you, or anything that you have done. All I know is that you went on a rant on ATP and "getthereitis", but changed the subject to toot your own horn (again), and now you have changed direction of the thread AGAIN by spouting off this "education" nonsense. No one is going to give you ANY credibility on this subject, since you did it yourself.

It doesn't matter how much you try to "educate" potential pilots and tell them what the industry is like. THEY DON'T CARE. They want to fly a jet, and will gladly PAY money to do it (Gulfstream). For every person that takes a moral stand, there are 10 that get on the jet and pass them by.

I am sure people in the medical profession don't go to the local nursing school and warn them how crappy their industry can be.

Ryan needs to have a come to Jesus talk with you, kid, 'cause somebody has obviously missed the mark in educating you about this industry.

Mark here has done more for this profession before he hit 1,500 hours than you probably ever will, and I don't personally take kindly to you attacking the guy for trying to raise some points that need to be discussed about this industry.

 

[HeyEng]

Glad there was to least ONE military dude on these 6 pages of threads! I agree with Fly4Pay, if it wasn't for the retirement check (which isn't great, but it will pay a mortgage payment) there is no way in %#$@ I would consider airline flying. I still remember sitting in the backyard as a kid watching departures from ATL for HOURS telling myself "I don't care what the pay is...I wanna be up there..." Now of course about 50% of those airplanes are in South America somewhere because they belonged to Eastern. I am in a unit that is FULL of reservists that were furloughed and recalled. Guess how many went back to NWA, United and AA? None. Zip. Zero. Great news for those folks who want to enjoy mac and cheese for a few years. 777...listen, these folks here are the most helpful people out there in this career. If it wasn't for JC, I would have separated in 2000, paid 50K+ to go to FSA or Comair Academy (Oh my...yeah, THAT school) and would have been fat, dumb and happy at ASA making 16k a year...well until Sept 12, 2001. Because I read up on what the industry was doing, I decided to hang around the AF until I can retire. This board is a lifesaver...read, read, read. :nana2:

 

[meyers9163]

Look, I won't even pretend that I know you, or anything that you have done. All I know is that you went on a rant on ATP and "getthereitis", but changed the subject to toot your own horn (again), and now you have changed direction of the thread AGAIN by spouting off this "education" nonsense. No one is going to give you ANY credibility on this subject, since you did it yourself.

It doesn't matter how much you try to "educate" potential pilots and tell them what the industry is like. THEY DON'T CARE. They want to fly a jet, and will gladly PAY money to do it (Gulfstream). For every person that takes a moral stand, there are 10 that get on the jet and pass them by.

I am sure people in the medical profession don't go to the local nursing school and warn them how crappy their industry can be.

Man both of ya guys come on now..... I know you both are very intelligent when it comes to aviation and the state of the industry. YOU BOTH want the same thing, one is there already and one will be there shortly. Lets keep it professional with no attacks. Truth is Mark (seggy) is doing a lot to help things out and I think you realize that but may just be annoyed with the style he goes after it. Lets just keep in mind we are all trying for the same thing. The raising of the bar in this industry so we can all have a better "tomorrow."

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I haven't even posted and this is already 7 pages long! For everyone's sake, I'll stay out of this one.

It's the only way jtrain won't resort to name calling (the eff word, but add 'ing' to that first word, followed by 'kids').

And then after this namecalling from jtrain, we'll have SteveC (a moderator) do nothing about it... until Don steps up for me and after numerous PMs about being tough on moderating forums, Don finally convinces SteveC to modify jtrain's vulgarity.

jtrain and SteveC, you guys know exactly what thread and specific instance I refer to.

Since I don't want to go through that again, I'll refrain from posting about this particular topic of low time pilots.

 

[meyers9163]

I haven't even posted and this is already 7 pages long! For everyone's sake, I'll stay out of this one.

It's the only way jtrain won't resort to name calling (the eff word, but add 'ing' to that first word, followed by 'kids').

And then after this namecalling from jtrain, we'll have SteveC (a moderator) do nothing about it... until Don steps up for me and after numerous PMs about being tough on moderating forums, Don finally convinces SteveC to modify jtrain's vulgarity.

jtrain and SteveC, you guys know exactly what thread and specific instance I refer to.

Since I don't want to go through that again, I'll refrain from posting about this particular topic of low time pilots.

Cherokee_Cruiser send me a PM about this..... I am curious about your input on low time pilots!

 

[jtrain609]

You know maing, I'd love to jump into the thick of this, but I'm way too busy at work and with taking care of other things in my life to follow this thread, hence you guys only get a few seemingly random posts from me in this one.

And the mods are not out to get you CC, you hang yourself.

 

[SmitteyB]

I really don't want to get flamebaited for this but I will.

I agree that 300 hour guys shouldn't be near an airliner, and that 196 hour Pinnacle pilot is just plain sick, but...

Seggy- you say this low time stuff has got to stop. And I agree with you...you got hired at low time, and you admit that you shouldn't have been there. That takes a real man to admit that. So- KUDOS.

If (10 years ago) guys needed 2000-3000 hours to get hired into a Beech 1900, that means they also had 5000-7000 hours to upgrade.

With what your suggesting, I'm calling for you to gain a little more experience and wait 2,000-3,000 more hours prior to accepting an upgrade to Captain on the 1900.

Deal?

I'm guessing, not. And you shouldn't wait! Do you see what I'm trying to get at?

Keep up the good work Seggy.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You know maing, I'd love to jump into the thick of this, but I'm way too busy at work and with taking care of other things in my life to follow this thread, hence you guys only get a few seemingly random posts from me in this one.

And the mods are not out to get you CC, you hang yourself.

Mods aren't out to get me.

It's your name calling went too far. Can't you respond professionally, *even if* another pilot's opinion differs from yours?

And SteveC needs to tighten up on his moderating. I'm glad Don fought for me via PMs to SteveC about toughening it up as a moderator. Kinda sad that Don is no longer a moderator here, and now we have SteveC who just doesn't want to moderate name calling. I truly wonder why that is...

 

[jtrain609]

Then you should take this up with SteveC, and if Steve has got a problem then he can moderate me (which he's done more than you might think), and if there's a further problem then Doug and/or Kristie will get involved.