The latest "happy" propaganda....

Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

"The inexperienced pilot, whoever he may be, is more accident prone than the experienced pilot," he said."

Noooooo, ya think?
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Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

Wooops....don't know what happened to my link. Thanks flyover. Do you think a person entering the industry today can have the same expectations out of an aviation career that you had?
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

I won't speak for the airline industry nor will I speak for flyover, but I think the days where we could expect to start working for someone and retire 20-30 years later with a pension and a gold watch are over, period.

Maybe the government. But that's about it.

I've had more jobs in my 15 years out of college than my dad has held in his entire life!
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

I agree with you. That's why I hate to see Kit Darby, and academies like RAA, fueling false hopes to the masses through these kind of press releases. I think Darby's projections are optimistic and he should make note that a career at a regional isn't the same as the career at a major ten years ago. I'm just trying to get flyover to expand on why it isn't a bad article, as articles go.
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

[ QUOTE ]
Wooops....don't know what happened to my link. Thanks flyover. Do you think a person entering the industry today can have the same expectations out of an aviation career that you had?

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No I don't. In fact when I came in I didn't have too high of an expectation. Most of the guys I knew were TWA so I was looking forward to furloughs and lots of ups and downs.

I did feel I'd gotten the gold ring when I landed at Delta. But I still was skeptical about a 36 year uninterrupted career at any airline. I had studied the industry a lot in college and knew it to be unstable and pretty unprofitable.

The expectations that guys had were based on a regulated industry. When that changed we went through a period where, even at Delta, we wondered if we would make it. Then the business boom that started with Reagan pretty much flowed into the 90s tech boom and many of us forgot there could be a down side. We assumed we had survived the crunch time that took out great airlines like Pan Am and Frontier and Braniff and Eastern, etc. By 2001 I knew we were in trouble and started getting the family ready for what was coming. I didn't expect to retire early, but I told them our shiny new contract wouldn't last long.

I do think the industry had to go through this. The long business boom, over a couple of decades after deregulation, hid a lot of problems. Too much debt, too many hubs, too high costs all have to get adjusted probably by industry-wide bankruptcy and consolidation. When they do this industry could go through a relatively long and stable period again. But the pay and benefits standards set by a regulated industry are likely gone for good.
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

This has a fishy, not too genuine feel to it. Not sure I believe the assertions of this article...
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

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This has a fishy, not too genuine feel to it. Not sure I believe the assertions of this article...

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Good dog! ----->
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Seriously - Kit is like the Michael Moore & Rush Limbaugh of the aviation world. He's out for Kit. His line of crud just so happens to be aviation training and there are a BUTT-LOAD of over-eager-uninformed individuals who will fall in right behind him and shell out a small fortune for the "dream."

Flyover said something very important - he said the he RESEARCHed the industry and knew the possible pitfalls that may have awaited him.

A lot of people don't do their homework...or worse yet....go chasing after the almighty dollar at the next great airline....and end up burned, scorned, and bitter (I can think of one or two on this very site).
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

[ QUOTE ]
I won't speak for the airline industry nor will I speak for flyover, but I think the days where we could expect to start working for someone and retire 20-30 years later with a pension and a gold watch are over, period.

Maybe the government. But that's about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet, interestingly, CEOs who've gone about destroying pension benefits for the rest of us still receive full pensions for working at a company for only a few years, and they do this at several companies, resulting in several separate pensions.

To borrow from Shakespeare: first we kill all the MBAs...
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Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

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I'm just trying to get flyover to expand on why it isn't a bad article, as articles go.

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Well it did hit some points that have some validity. There will be a controller shortage unless the FAA handles their big retirement properly which they probably won't. There will be a lot of new controllers out there.

And the pilot shortage thing just pointed out that some very young and inexperienced people will be going into jet cockpits. I think that's a fair expectation.

The whole idea of pilot shortages is interesting. I talked to D's VP of Flt Ops many years ago about that . At the time they were looking at it and had decided that they would eventually have to hire non-pilots and train them. Nobody at the time could foresee the pilot mill phenomonon.

And of course all of this is disconnected from the prospect of shutting down at least a third of the current hubs and parking a lot of airplanes in the near future. But that was kind of outside the scope of this article. Everyone is working from the assumption that the industry continues in it's current form. This is obviously not likely as in it's current form the industry is failing massively.
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

[ QUOTE ]
I won't speak for the airline industry nor will I speak for flyover, but I think the days where we could expect to start working for someone and retire 20-30 years later with a pension and a gold watch are over, period.

I've had more jobs in my 15 years out of college than my dad has held in his entire life!

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Finally my young padawan is beginning to see the light!

It was only for very brief periods in human history where that has been possible. In the USA I would say the years 1945 to 1985 were about it. At the turn of the 20th century 90% of the work force owned their own business. Conversely at the 21st turn, it was 90% the other way.

My dad told me at an early age - "Remember that no one ever got rich working for someone else. In very rare cases can any business really afford to pay you what you're worth."

I used to hold a lot of seminars on financial future planning. I asked people to raise their hands if they thought they were paid more than they're worth. In 5 years only one guy raised his hand.

He worked for the Post Office.
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

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http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-spilots14mar14,0,6806938.story?coll=sfla-news-sfla

Kit Darby and Regional Airline Academy...what a combination. I bet this story will be the newest link at the "industry news" page at some of the big academies websites.

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Didn't the article quote someone from the Regional Airline Association and not Regional Airline Academy? Those are two completely different RAA's aren't they, or am I missing something? The latter is probably true.
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

No you're right. That's why I thought the article was OK. They threw out the idea that a lot of experienced people were retiring (true) then gave the FAA and RAA a chance to defend their position that it wouldn't compromise safety. All in all pretty balanced.
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

I'm going to break my self imposed don't respond to Mr. Tenney moratorium this one time.

Mr. Tenney, do not freaking patronize me.

In the words of Barbara Bush, I am through with you.

That is all.
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

You guys are right, it was not Regional Airline Academy. The lady mentioning "we have full-motion simulators" kinda threw me off.

"Deborah McElroy, president of the Regional Airline Association, said regional carriers operate under the same stiff safety requirements as the major airlines. And once hired, a pilot undergoes the same intense training as in major airlines. That, she said, compensates for lack of experience."

Personally, I don't agree with her statement that intense training makes up for a lack of experience. I don't think anything can make up for a lack of experience, other than more experience. Becoming a better airline pilot is about getting out there and doing the job. Airline training is minimum standards to get you out the door, it's a cost factor. That's why it's nice to have guys coming into the system with as much experience as possible.

"McElroy said most regional pilots graduate from university aviation programs, which teach pilots how to operate in an airline environment from the start."

Most would mean more than half. I don't have anything to back this up but I would guess that more than half of regional pilots come from CFI and freight backgrounds and never went through a university aviation program.

Also, Kit Darby says "Once pilots are in their jobs, working as professionals, you won't see a problem with safety," he said. "The system prevents any low time pilots from being in charge."

They might not be "in charge" but to defend low experince pilots in the cockpit with the excuse that they are not "in charge" is weak, in my book. This has always been my beef with MAPD. I don't think a 300 hour guy (other than selected and trained in the military) belongs in a jet. That puts the Capt in a position of not only doing his job, but doing half the other guys job as well. Are Mesa airplanes falling out of the sky? Nope, but I sure wouldn't want to be a Capt over there. Ask Bog or my checkairman friend how it feels to be sitting next to a 300 hour wonder. Some are okay, but I wouldn't want to be a Capt working with the ones who aren't.

I don't label an article as good or bad based on how fairly both sides get to present their case. I label it based on whether I agree with what's being said or not. So, when I saw flyover saying he didn't think the article was bad, I was curious about where he was coming from.

I really don't think there will be a pilot shortage in the future unless the career continues it's downward spiral and becomes something not too many guys want to be involved with.

I did find the ATC part of the article interesting.
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to break my self imposed don't respond to Mr. Tenney moratorium this one time.

Mr. Tenney, do not freaking patronize me.

In the words of Barbara Bush, I am through with you.

That is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL the man is so blind he doesn't recognize an olive branch when he sees one.
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

[ QUOTE ]

"Deborah McElroy, president of the Regional Airline Association, said regional carriers operate under the same stiff safety requirements as the major airlines. And once hired, a pilot undergoes the same intense training as in major airlines. That, she said, compensates for lack of experience."

Personally, I don't agree with her statement that intense training makes up for a lack of experience. I don't think anything can make up for a lack of experience, other than more experience. Becoming a better airline pilot is about getting out there and doing the job. Airline training is minimum standards to get you out the door, it's a cost factor. That's why it's nice to have guys coming into the system with as much experience as possible.

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Agree. But the industry has always changed their minimums to meet the market, since day one. Look at how Ernest Gann started his airline career. (I'm assuming, of course, you've read Fate is the Hunter)

My main concern is decision making. Specifically those rare times when everyone is saying "go" and you as a captain should be saying "no". I've noted my obsevations before that in recent years I've seen a propensity for regional airline crews to continue operations with thunderstorms on the airport or approach, a trait also seen in some more more experienced crews. It's really the only fun you get to have as a captain anyway, is throwing a wrench in the works by refusing to takeoff or land. I've single-handedly closed ATL down more than once. As the old saying goes, the captain wins all the arguments because he controls the parking brake.

But things will work out fine. They always do.

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Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

"Finally my young padawan is beginning to see the light!"

Is that the part that's an olive branch? I'm not seeing it either.

I think you need to get back to what you said a while ago about the way your thoughts come through, via this medium, aren't the greatest...or something like that....
 
Re: The latest \"happy\" propaganda....

[ QUOTE ]
"Finally my young padawan is beginning to see the light!"

Is that the part that's an olive branch? I'm not seeing it either.

I think you need to get back to what you said a while ago about the way your thoughts come through, via this medium, aren't the greatest...or something like that....

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey I'm on YOUR side!
 
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