The Great Jumpseat War of 2019

Cory Trevor said:
I guess I worded it wrong, why would the American flight have been his first option and not the United flight with open seats that he can see the loads on?
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It sounds like it left a little earlier than the United one. I could see people doing that to get home a little earlier, people will go pretty far at times to make an earlier commute.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
This place has become increasingly odd in the last year or so. You have to have noticed how many older regulars no longer post...
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Sorry, I’ve been adulting.....

I’m glad I wasn’t flying but I’d prefer to bring them along and talk. FOM never got changed. I actually thought if I’d call off if CA wanted to deny. Never got to that point for me.

I usually try and fly the airline I did the trip. AA or UA, but it’s because they are usually within 29 minutes of each other.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ozziecat35 said:
@Derg the story as it was related to me directly by the affected pilot. In ORD, listed for an OO jumpseat on an American Eagle painted jet. OO CA blatantly denies him. He hustles to Terminal 1 and while enroute, lists as a non-rev / checks in for an OO operated UAX flight. He arrives, door is closed, but jetway attached, they were on a mx delay. (So in theory, flight could have been closed out.) He asks the gate agent if there's any chance to get on...she says yeah, the door is still open, they were doing some mx stuff, let me call down. He doesn't hear the other end of the phone call, but the gate agent says "Yeah he's an Air Wisconsin pilot." Now, was this miscommunication? He'll never no. Gate agent says no. Flight pushes 10 minutes or so later. Other agent comes up, saying the OO captain asked if the non-rev up top was a UAL or UAX Exclusive pilot, when he was told he was a Whiskey guy, the CA said no. It's not clear if they tried to tell him he was listed as a basic scum non-rev. The flight had open seats in the back.

I can see a couple places in the story where there could have been confusion, or they were legit done with mx and trying to get the door closed.

In the end, company ended up positive spacing him on an OO flight later and he got home.


I'm also legit planning on buying one of these:

Jumpseat War Veteran
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Man, that’s way too much captain involvement. I’m like “did they clear CASS, did the gate software automation make sure to follow priorities? Did everyone get on that wanted to go? I’ll take a delay to get them on. Pushback checklist”

But also, after 20 years and having already been to the “Big Brown Desk” to see what happens when an event brings out the pilot-be-good stick, in this scenario, I’d take that risk to get the jumpseater on because that entire situation was communicated poorly by SAPA, made absolutely zero sense and, at the end of the day under fog of (operational) war, I can’t see my POI involving the CMO on this issue because they generally have bigger fish to fry.

POI’s don't like being seen as pawns.
 
ozziecat35 said:
@Derg the story as it was related to me directly by the affected pilot. In ORD, listed for an OO jumpseat on an American Eagle painted jet. OO CA blatantly denies him. He hustles to Terminal 1 and while enroute, lists as a non-rev / checks in for an OO operated UAX flight. He arrives, door is closed, but jetway attached, they were on a mx delay. (So in theory, flight could have been closed out.) He asks the gate agent if there's any chance to get on...she says yeah, the door is still open, they were doing some mx stuff, let me call down. He doesn't hear the other end of the phone call, but the gate agent says "Yeah he's an Air Wisconsin pilot." Now, was this miscommunication? He'll never no. Gate agent says no. Flight pushes 10 minutes or so later. Other agent comes up, saying the OO captain asked if the non-rev up top was a UAL or UAX Exclusive pilot, when he was told he was a Whiskey guy, the CA said no. It's not clear if they tried to tell him he was listed as a basic scum non-rev. The flight had open seats in the back.

I can see a couple places in the story where there could have been confusion, or they were legit done with mx and trying to get the door closed.

In the end, company ended up positive spacing him on an OO flight later and he got home.


I'm also legit planning on buying one of these:

Jumpseat War Veteran
Click to expand...

I’m going to buy one, even though I have nothing to do with it. Is that stolen valor?
 
It moves in generations. The “old guard” you’re referring to is who ran off the actual “old guard”. The Newbies become “old guard” eventually and then a new crop will eventually run them off.

if you’re claiming to be “old guard” and you don’t remember Aloft, Chunk, Eagle,FlyChicaga or Ophir, chances are, you’re one of the newer generations.

Check out the scene with “The Engineer” and Neo in The Matrix. Yes, it’s the same thing.
 
Derg said:
It moves in generations. The “old guard” you’re referring to is who ran off the actual “old guard”. The Newbies become “old guard” eventually and then a new crop will eventually run them off.

if you’re claiming to be “old guard” and you don’t remember Aloft, Chunk, Eagle,FlyChicaga or Ophir, chances are, you’re one of the newer generations.

Check out the scene with “The Engineer” and Neo in The Matrix. Yes, it’s the same thing.
Click to expand...

But who is screenshot girl? Tellmedah?
 
As I've said before, I'm very upset over this whole thing. And yes, I keep coming back, because I keep thinking that people are inherently reasonable and will consider information that challenges their understanding of an issue.

There is so much misinformation here that it feels like there's industrial-strength gaslighting going on. Everyone blames SAPA because it's cool to hate SAPA, and saying anything negative about the non-union carrier is fair game, apparently; after all:

Der_Meister said:
I don't think any union pilots felt Skywest were brethren at all ever.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing—this isn't just SAPA. A year ago, when this issue was first pushed, it was basically all of UAX. Even this time around, it's YX and OO (And kinda sorta not really YV).

Union/anti-union hate aside, why do you think these carriers were up in arms?

JS Disagreement - Airline Pilot Central Forums is a partial thread from the last time this came up; the referenced thread in the United subforum has apparently been deleted, but was filled with justifications (and hubris) from UA pilots, who felt the jumpseat priority on all UAX flights should be:
1. Own metal
2. UAL pilots
3. UAX pilots
4. OAL.

This was a big issue at the time—the current jumpseat chair posted on the SAPA forums discussing it, and his update there was leaked, mocked, satirized, etc. Even then, it was a recurring issue from as far back as 2008, and it's always the same basic thing—UAL pilots attempting to increase their priority on express flights, typically because they're angry about a pilot from a carrier who flies UAX flights getting priority based on TOC when that pilot was operating/is to operate a flight for another carrier.

My understanding, based on the SAPA jumpseat chair's statements, is that the jumpseat agreement UAL asked UAX to sign in May read like this:
For ALL UAX FLIGHTS:
1. Own metal
2. UAL pilots
3. UAX-exclusive pilots
4. UAX-non-exclusive pilots
5. OAL

SAPA claims to have reached out to discuss the issue with UAL MEC, but was told:

bLizZuE said:
There was nothing to negotiate.
Click to expand...

Here's the thing—for many reasons, my confidence in SAPA is rock-bottom, except for one single place—the jumpseat chair. That is the only issue that the organization has shown any significant competence in, and that individual is the one person I have heard former reps praise as honest. In my few interactions with him, he's been direct, honest, and friendly.

What you're telling me is that, in spite of all their prior attempts to grab priority over UAX on UAX metal, this time UAL MEC was offering a fair agreement that dictated UAX and UAL TOC on UAX non-exclusive carriers? And, further, that the one person in SAPA I actually have any faith is literally just straight-up lying to the entire pilot group for effectively no reason except to start a jumpseat war*?

I don't trust SAPA, but in this they have operated in a way that appears to be transparent, up to and including a facebook exchange between SAPA reps and an (alleged) UAL MEC rep on the JS committee, where the SAPA reps were stating that they gave permission to post all emails and correspondence relating to the subject, and asking said reps to do it, and the UAL MEC rep demurring under changing (and dubious) claims of 'privacy.'

All the information I have is second-hand. But you're telling me that I'm being deliberately, blatantly lied to. Not just mislead, but actually directly—and passionately—lied to, by several SAPA members, one of whom is passionate, outspoken, and has strong pro-ALPA ties.

I'm not buying that without proof. Statements/press releases from UAL's MEC don't meet that bar. General opinion doesn't meet that bar. The sneer of ALPA airline pilots who view us as "step brothers" at best doesn't meet that bar.

And I'm still a yes vote for ALPA, and have offered my services to the OC. But treating a group of 5500 airline pilots—doing the same job as most of you—like they're beneath you in some way is no way to achieve solidarity. And this issue is really highlighting the divide in stark relief.

-Kysh
* - I am aware of the fact that driving a wedge between pilot groups is a strong union-busting tactic. If I am shown sufficient evidence that this was the case here, and if 'cassus belli' is falsified, then my position will flip-flop completely.

(NB. I am still very unhappy with SAPA about all of this, as I've said before. Instead of jumpseat denials, we should have simply moved UAL/UAL-X with OAL by TOC, and left it there. Even if it was a longer course, I feel it would have made the point more clearly, without all the screaming and bloodshed. Furthermore, many of the statements by SAPA reps, chiefly concerning certificate action, pitting the FOs against the CAs, etc... were a complete disgrace. As were the blacklist threats, the doxxing, etc., by the United pilot group. And there are so many distractors being thrown out in all directions that it feels like the middle of a propaganda fight.)
 
Derg said:
It moves in generations. The “old guard” you’re referring to is who ran off the actual “old guard”. The Newbies become “old guard” eventually and then a new crop will eventually run them off.

if you’re claiming to be “old guard” and you don’t remember Aloft, Chunk, Eagle,FlyChicaga or Ophir, chances are, you’re one of the newer generations.

Check out the scene with “The Engineer” and Neo in The Matrix. Yes, it’s the same thing.
Click to expand...

Hell no. I’m not going anywhere. People who leave after getting where they want to go don’t understand how this place is supposed to work.
 
bLizZuE said:
His (@Derg ) first comment after congratulations was “you better not disappear!”
Click to expand...

One of the biggest pains for me is that where I work is currently a dumpster fire and I wouldn’t feel right telling someone to come work here. If that ever changes (or I become smart enough to leave) I look forward to networking my ass (you can totally say ass on here) off to help other people out.
 
I keep coming back because I really love you all, as a group... and this breaks my heart. This whole thing has left such a sour taste in my mouth that I decided to entirely skip NJC.

But I also love the people I fly with, and I know that they're good people and good pilots. And I absolutely can't abide bullying, in any direction.

I want truth, honesty, and integrity. I want people to admit mistakes and move on from them. I want people to recognize their biases, and view things from the points of view of those they disagree with.

I want open communication, without ridicule, spite, scorn, derision, disgust, and hate. Passion is fine. Forcefulness is fine. Anger, even, is fine.

But this whole thing, like so many things of late, has been a matter of picking a side, digging trenches, and lobbing mortar rounds back and forth.
 
Acrofox said:
I keep coming back because I really love you all, as a group... and this breaks my heart. This whole thing has left such a sour taste in my mouth that I decided to entirely skip NJC.

But I also love the people I fly with, and I know that they're good people and good pilots. And I absolutely can't abide bullying, in any direction.

I want truth, honesty, and integrity. I want people to admit mistakes and move on from them. I want people to recognize their biases, and view things from the points of view of those they disagree with.

I want open communication, without ridicule, spite, scorn, derision, disgust, and hate. Passion is fine. Forcefulness is fine. Anger, even, is fine.

But this whole thing, like so many things of late, has been a matter of picking a side, digging trenches, and lobbing mortar rounds back and forth.
Click to expand...

So SAPA was wrong. They lobbed a lot of grenades for nothing, and wrongly, and you backed their play as did others. Which I could almost understand, except you all kept pretending you were standing with your "union".

As a guy who "fought" a jumpseat "war" on Murican and won I'm trying to figure out did you learn anything? The way both posts reads are, "SAPA sucks but our jumpseat committee that backed this nonsense is the only shining gem". In retrospect I would assume you'd have to conclude United had the right of it AND was pretty calm and patient with you all.

Instead I see "many sides.... Many sides". And I'm not sure what ur doing.
 
Acrofox said:
As I've said before, I'm very upset over this whole thing. And yes, I keep coming back, because I keep thinking that people are inherently reasonable and will consider information that challenges their understanding of an issue.

There is so much misinformation here that it feels like there's industrial-strength gaslighting going on. Everyone blames SAPA because it's cool to hate SAPA, and saying anything negative about the non-union carrier is fair game, apparently; after all:



Here's the thing—this isn't just SAPA. A year ago, when this issue was first pushed, it was basically all of UAX. Even this time around, it's YX and OO (And kinda sorta not really YV).

Union/anti-union hate aside, why do you think these carriers were up in arms?

JS Disagreement - Airline Pilot Central Forums is a partial thread from the last time this came up; the referenced thread in the United subforum has apparently been deleted, but was filled with justifications (and hubris) from UA pilots, who felt the jumpseat priority on all UAX flights should be:
1. Own metal
2. UAL pilots
3. UAX pilots
4. OAL.

This was a big issue at the time—the current jumpseat chair posted on the SAPA forums discussing it, and his update there was leaked, mocked, satirized, etc. Even then, it was a recurring issue from as far back as 2008, and it's always the same basic thing—UAL pilots attempting to increase their priority on express flights, typically because they're angry about a pilot from a carrier who flies UAX flights getting priority based on TOC when that pilot was operating/is to operate a flight for another carrier.

My understanding, based on the SAPA jumpseat chair's statements, is that the jumpseat agreement UAL asked UAX to sign in May read like this:
For ALL UAX FLIGHTS:
1. Own metal
2. UAL pilots
3. UAX-exclusive pilots
4. UAX-non-exclusive pilots
5. OAL

SAPA claims to have reached out to discuss the issue with UAL MEC, but was told:



Here's the thing—for many reasons, my confidence in SAPA is rock-bottom, except for one single place—the jumpseat chair. That is the only issue that the organization has shown any significant competence in, and that individual is the one person I have heard former reps praise as honest. In my few interactions with him, he's been direct, honest, and friendly.

What you're telling me is that, in spite of all their prior attempts to grab priority over UAX on UAX metal, this time UAL MEC was offering a fair agreement that dictated UAX and UAL TOC on UAX non-exclusive carriers? And, further, that the one person in SAPA I actually have any faith is literally just straight-up lying to the entire pilot group for effectively no reason except to start a jumpseat war*?

I don't trust SAPA, but in this they have operated in a way that appears to be transparent, up to and including a facebook exchange between SAPA reps and an (alleged) UAL MEC rep on the JS committee, where the SAPA reps were stating that they gave permission to post all emails and correspondence relating to the subject, and asking said reps to do it, and the UAL MEC rep demurring under changing (and dubious) claims of 'privacy.'

All the information I have is second-hand. But you're telling me that I'm being deliberately, blatantly lied to. Not just mislead, but actually directly—and passionately—lied to, by several SAPA members, one of whom is passionate, outspoken, and has strong pro-ALPA ties.

I'm not buying that without proof. Statements/press releases from UAL's MEC don't meet that bar. General opinion doesn't meet that bar. The sneer of ALPA airline pilots who view us as "step brothers" at best doesn't meet that bar.

And I'm still a yes vote for ALPA, and have offered my services to the OC. But treating a group of 5500 airline pilots—doing the same job as most of you—like they're beneath you in some way is no way to achieve solidarity. And this issue is really highlighting the divide in stark relief.

-Kysh
* - I am aware of the fact that driving a wedge between pilot groups is a strong union-busting tactic. If I am shown sufficient evidence that this was the case here, and if 'cassus belli' is falsified, then my position will flip-flop completely.

(NB. I am still very unhappy with SAPA about all of this, as I've said before. Instead of jumpseat denials, we should have simply moved UAL/UAL-X with OAL by TOC, and left it there. Even if it was a longer course, I feel it would have made the point more clearly, without all the screaming and bloodshed. Furthermore, many of the statements by SAPA reps, chiefly concerning certificate action, pitting the FOs against the CAs, etc... were a complete disgrace. As were the blacklist threats, the doxxing, etc., by the United pilot group. And there are so many distractors being thrown out in all directions that it feels like the middle of a propaganda fight.)
Click to expand...
here's the thing, the SAPA jumpseat chair lied to you. What SAPA signed was the exact same agreement presented before. Why they made up UA was asking for priority above UAX on non exclusive carriers, no one knows but the guy that started that lie. It has been proven time and time again to be false.
 
Acrofox said:
As I've said before, I'm very upset over this whole thing. And yes, I keep coming back, because I keep thinking that people are inherently reasonable and will consider information that challenges their understanding of an issue.

There is so much misinformation here that it feels like there's industrial-strength gaslighting going on. Everyone blames SAPA because it's cool to hate SAPA, and saying anything negative about the non-union carrier is fair game, apparently; after all:



Here's the thing—this isn't just SAPA. A year ago, when this issue was first pushed, it was basically all of UAX. Even this time around, it's YX and OO (And kinda sorta not really YV).

Union/anti-union hate aside, why do you think these carriers were up in arms?

JS Disagreement - Airline Pilot Central Forums is a partial thread from the last time this came up; the referenced thread in the United subforum has apparently been deleted, but was filled with justifications (and hubris) from UA pilots, who felt the jumpseat priority on all UAX flights should be:
1. Own metal
2. UAL pilots
3. UAX pilots
4. OAL.

This was a big issue at the time—the current jumpseat chair posted on the SAPA forums discussing it, and his update there was leaked, mocked, satirized, etc. Even then, it was a recurring issue from as far back as 2008, and it's always the same basic thing—UAL pilots attempting to increase their priority on express flights, typically because they're angry about a pilot from a carrier who flies UAX flights getting priority based on TOC when that pilot was operating/is to operate a flight for another carrier.

My understanding, based on the SAPA jumpseat chair's statements, is that the jumpseat agreement UAL asked UAX to sign in May read like this:
For ALL UAX FLIGHTS:
1. Own metal
2. UAL pilots
3. UAX-exclusive pilots
4. UAX-non-exclusive pilots
5. OAL

SAPA claims to have reached out to discuss the issue with UAL MEC, but was told:



Here's the thing—for many reasons, my confidence in SAPA is rock-bottom, except for one single place—the jumpseat chair. That is the only issue that the organization has shown any significant competence in, and that individual is the one person I have heard former reps praise as honest. In my few interactions with him, he's been direct, honest, and friendly.

What you're telling me is that, in spite of all their prior attempts to grab priority over UAX on UAX metal, this time UAL MEC was offering a fair agreement that dictated UAX and UAL TOC on UAX non-exclusive carriers? And, further, that the one person in SAPA I actually have any faith is literally just straight-up lying to the entire pilot group for effectively no reason except to start a jumpseat war*?

I don't trust SAPA, but in this they have operated in a way that appears to be transparent, up to and including a facebook exchange between SAPA reps and an (alleged) UAL MEC rep on the JS committee, where the SAPA reps were stating that they gave permission to post all emails and correspondence relating to the subject, and asking said reps to do it, and the UAL MEC rep demurring under changing (and dubious) claims of 'privacy.'

All the information I have is second-hand. But you're telling me that I'm being deliberately, blatantly lied to. Not just mislead, but actually directly—and passionately—lied to, by several SAPA members, one of whom is passionate, outspoken, and has strong pro-ALPA ties.

I'm not buying that without proof. Statements/press releases from UAL's MEC don't meet that bar. General opinion doesn't meet that bar. The sneer of ALPA airline pilots who view us as "step brothers" at best doesn't meet that bar.

And I'm still a yes vote for ALPA, and have offered my services to the OC. But treating a group of 5500 airline pilots—doing the same job as most of you—like they're beneath you in some way is no way to achieve solidarity. And this issue is really highlighting the divide in stark relief.

-Kysh
* - I am aware of the fact that driving a wedge between pilot groups is a strong union-busting tactic. If I am shown sufficient evidence that this was the case here, and if 'cassus belli' is falsified, then my position will flip-flop completely.

(NB. I am still very unhappy with SAPA about all of this, as I've said before. Instead of jumpseat denials, we should have simply moved UAL/UAL-X with OAL by TOC, and left it there. Even if it was a longer course, I feel it would have made the point more clearly, without all the screaming and bloodshed. Furthermore, many of the statements by SAPA reps, chiefly concerning certificate action, pitting the FOs against the CAs, etc... were a complete disgrace. As were the blacklist threats, the doxxing, etc., by the United pilot group. And there are so many distractors being thrown out in all directions that it feels like the middle of a propaganda fight.)
Click to expand...

I’m really not following you on any of this. I’m not asking you to admit that you were wrong, but someone over there certainly needs to.

As someone who has no goodwill for Skywest Inc, I would implore their pilot group not to go out of their way to burn all their bridges.
 
Acrofox said:
I keep coming back because I really love you all, as a group... and this breaks my heart. This whole thing has left such a sour taste in my mouth that I decided to entirely skip NJC.

But I also love the people I fly with, and I know that they're good people and good pilots. And I absolutely can't abide bullying, in any direction.

I want truth, honesty, and integrity. I want people to admit mistakes and move on from them. I want people to recognize their biases, and view things from the points of view of those they disagree with.

I want open communication, without ridicule, spite, scorn, derision, disgust, and hate. Passion is fine. Forcefulness is fine. Anger, even, is fine.

But this whole thing, like so many things of late, has been a matter of picking a side, digging trenches, and lobbing mortar rounds back and forth.
Click to expand...
Here’s the thing, I know you to be a levelheaded person. It’s one thing to admit you bought a bad bill of goods, it’s another to blindly follow a lie in the name of loyalty. SAPA was proven multiple times to twist the facts to their benefit, and smart people for reasons I’m still not sure of went along with it. In the end what did your pilot group gain, except animosity from basically all your peers?
 
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