The future of GA?

Sprint100

Sprint100

Well-Known Member
I could have made this a venting post over my displeasure with the prices of new planes in GA, instead here is a small inkling of some of my thinking.
Personally, I lean more toward GA than the "prestigious" airline career. I am just perplexed about how manufacturers want to make aviation something, mostly everybody, can enjoy but yet they price these new planes at $300,000 and up. Used planes still run you at least a couple ten thousand. We aren't even counting the other monthly costs involved.
Renting alone can run fairly cheap per hour, but most places have hour minimums. Even share ownership can be pricey.
It's as if just to enjoy flying as a simple pleasure you have to make it your only simple pleasure.
Does anybody see any drop in the prices of new planes?
 
I wish. I mean how much is it to full up a C152 with an avergage fuel price. Just an estimate. I bet it is enough, and that adds up if you want to make flying a hobby.
 
Not sure, but hopefully the laws of supply and demand, along with more GA manufacturing competition, make GA aircraft more affordable. I think they're affordable as they are, ie Cirrus.

Not that I can afford one now, but most certainly when I'm in my 40's.
 
JaceTheAce said:
Not sure, but hopefully the laws of supply and demand, along with more GA manufacturing competition, make GA aircraft more affordable. I think they're affordable as they are, ie Cirrus.

Not that I can afford one now, but most certainly when I'm in my 40's.
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GA buyers want it both ways. They want top of the notch avionics, but they want cheap. You have to pick one, and avionics is winning.
 
I'm flying this week with the flight test engineer on the Citation II series who was at Cessna in the heyday, he's a long time 757/767 UPS Capt now. I've always thought Cessna built too many airplanes in the late 70's and early 80's and that lead to the downfall of GA, they overflooded the market. His opinion was it had more to do with product liability than overbuilding.

Anyhow, my point is that an older mid-70's Cessna with a Garmin 430 will do 90% of what a new plane will do at 20% of the cost. My 79 152 Aerobat is legal for aerobatics (no new Cessna is), can burn autofuel at a great discount over 100LL (new planes can't), and has an IFR Approach approved GPS/comm. How they figure they can sell new airplanes at 300K makes me wonder, too. My plane is worth about 10% of that figure.

Used aircraft are a bargin, in my mind, compared to renting or buying new.
 
JaceTheAce said:
I think they're affordable as they are, ie Cirrus.
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Whuhhhhhhh, how many people have anything that costs $300,000. Most don't have anything that costs over $40,000.

I totally agree that avionics is currently winning that battle, but I think about new cars these days. Some of the less expensive cars are coming with features or style you would only found in a car worth twice as much.
 
DE727UPS said:
I'm flying this week with the flight test engineer on the Citation II series who was at Cessna in the heyday, he's a long time 757/767 UPS Capt now. I've always thought Cessna built too many airplanes in the late 70's and early 80's and that lead to the downfall of GA, they overflooded the market. His opinion was it had more to do with product liability than overbuilding.

Anyhow, my point is that an older mid-70's Cessna with a Garmin 430 will do 90% of what a new plane will do at 20% of the cost. My 79 152 Aerobat is legal for aerobatics (no new Cessna is), can burn autofuel at a great discount over 100LL (new planes can't), and has an IFR Approach approved GPS/comm. How they figure they can sell new airplanes at 300K makes me wonder, too. My plane is worth about 10% of that figure.

Used aircraft are a bargin, in my mind, compared to renting or buying new.
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Very good points DE!!!!!!!!!
 
Provided you do not fly 24/7, you don't have to own the whole 300,000 Cirrus. OurPlane seems to be sucessfully implementing the fractional concept in GA.
 
Thats why the light sport and EAA are growing so much. You can build and fly your own plane for the same price as buying a new car.
 
Sprint100 said:
Does anybody see any drop in the prices of new planes?
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No. Our Society would have to learn how to stop suing people for their own stupidity first, or when they reach the short end of the stick on calculated AND uncalculated risks. I think your stomach would really turn if you had any idea what kind of insurance costs manufacturers, mechanics and FBO's have to pay. If there is ANY kind of accident or incident - whether it could have been prevented by the manufacturer, mechanic or whomever even when it was the pilots sheer stupidity the victims familes and lawyers start drooling over multimillion dollar lawsuits. THAT is largly why flying is so much more expensive! Sorry for the rant... I'm done now...
 
BZNflyer248 said:
No. Our Society would have to learn how to stop suing people for their own stupidity first, or when they reach the short end of the stick on calculated AND uncalculated risks.
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Liability costs are a big factor. If congress had not passed laws limiting how long manufacturers would be liable, Cessna probably wouldn't be making any light planes today.

Manufacturing and avionics costs will come down. I see a bright future for GA IF the government doesn't do something stupid.
 
Texasspilot said:
Thats why the light sport and EAA are growing so much. You can build and fly your own plane for the same price as buying a new car.
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True, but not everyone has the drive to complete one.
You can do something like a lancair 51% program in something like 30 days, though I just went to their website and don't see that anywhere, I wonder if they've stopped that program, runs up the cost but boy, a IV-P cruising at over 300mph sure would be a nice machine!
But you're still looking at 50k for the engine and I don't see the kit cost on the website anymore :(


Does anyone know how the financing works on a kit? I've always wondered if you could finance the whole thing up front or if it was considered too much risk since if you default all they get is a box of parts.

Some day I'd like to build something, even if it's not as nice as a 4-p :)
 
BTW thinking on avionics, you'd think the price for a basic panel would be coming down with all these all in one type units, you can buy a used 430 or 530 and have a nav/com/GPS done, then add a mode C and have a downright decent panel... how much are 430's now a days? I know a couple years ago they were like 8 or 9 grand. I dunno..... maybe it's more than I think
Im also surprised no one has mentioned the light sport category, maybe the lower cost of certification will mean cheap basic airplanes and a shot in the arm for GA.
 
DAMN YOU for making me look at these again. Now I realllllly want one

rv-7_quickbuild_lg.jpg


26k for a quickbuild, add a used 160hp engine and you're going about 150 kts in 600 hours of work.
 
If you haven't already, be sure to check out www.rvproject.com -- Dan Checkoway's blog on building (and now flying) his RV-7. Dan is the man behind www.LogShare.com, a free online logbook that you all should be using as an offsite backup to your paper logbook.

As for the subject of this thread, it's not just airplane ownership that's slipping beyond the financial reach of most people, it's hourly rental costs. $125/hr for a C-172 is ridiculous, G1000 panel or not. If the industry is not VERY careful, it's not difficult to imagine GA pricing itself out of existence, forcing the airlines to train their newhires in ab initio programs like most foreign carriers have to.
 
thanks for the link, do I dare click it or will it make me want one even WORSE? :)
ahh, sucks to be poor, doesn't it?
 
Philip said:
thanks for the link, do I dare click it or will it make me want one even WORSE? :)
ahh, sucks to be poor, doesn't it?
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I want to build something, preferably something that I can compete in aerobatics with.

Any ideas?

I like this one, www.teamrocketaircraft.com but I wish it could be stressed more. It is way to easy to pull more than +6 G's.
 
lruppert said:
I want to build something, preferably something that I can compete in aerobatics with.

Any ideas?

I like this one, www.teamrocketaircraft.com but I wish it could be stressed more. It is way to easy to pull more than +6 G's.
Click to expand...

Doesn't Pitts make a homebuilt? I believe the instructor I took a few aerobatic lessons from was working on one.
 
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