The End of the 50 Seater

[Autothrust Blue]

I dont think passengers who have been used to some type of jet service will get into an airplane like a C402. Even though its just as safe, they wont see it that way. How many times a day do you hear "ahhh man, this is one of them little planes"

It's something of a shock when folks walk out to the "airliner" and see a Brasilia too. Most of them get over it though. And many get off smiling.

You burn much less gas with power and air hooked up and the APU unhindered.

I agree with you but the company has said any turns under an hour and leave the APU running. Thing is we don't ever get power and air on the ground quick enough to keep the APU off and park it with #2 going. If we did we wouldn't need to start the APU except for pushback. Sometimes we'll get power but that is no guarantee air will be hooked up and when it's 90* out with 40-50 people in the back it heats up quick.

A certain large regional airline with a hub and large ramp operation in DFW didn't seem to understand that preconditioned air is needed almost immediately after engine shut down during the summertime without the APU running. The net result of this was APUs running all the time.

Cost of pissed off passengers: still priceless.

FWIW, my company flies a lot of routes in 402s formerly flown by Beech 1900s. Ridership is consistently up. The pax notice, but it doesn't stop them from buying a ticket. In a couple of our midwest stations, we're on track to carry 10,000 passengers this year, a goal the turboprop operators never hit.

I don't know if jet passengers would get on twin pistons, but I'm certain they'd take one step down, for example jet -> turboprop or turboprop -> twin piston.

It is easy when you're the only air service in town (Marion, IL).

 

[jrh]

It is easy when you're the only air service in town (Marion, IL).

What's your point?

I'm not sure if you're making a slam on my airline, or just stating a fact. I'll assume you're just stating a fact.

Most of the towns we're talking about only have one carrier serving them. The issue is not a matter of competition, it's a matter of what passengers are willing to fly on.

Sure, if there is an airport out there with two carriers flying CRJ-200s in, and all of a sudden one carrier decides to stick Saab 340s on the route, while the other carrier continues jet service....more passengers would gravitate towards the jet, I think.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about if a single carrier downgrades a jet to a turboprop, or a turboprop to a piston twin, will people keep flying? I think they will.

I used my operator as an example. Beech 1900s were replaced by Cessna 402s and passenger loads went up, not down. People don't care what they fly on as much as schedule/frequency/reliability/price. When an airport goes from a couple departures per day, costing a couple hundred bucks/seat on a Beech 1900, to six departures/day, costing $59 on a 402, people have no trouble riding on the 402.

 

[dasleben]

I used my operator as an example. Beech 1900s were replaced by Cessna 402s and passenger loads went up, not down. People don't care what they fly on as much as schedule/frequency/reliability/price. When an airport goes from a couple departures per day, costing a couple hundred bucks/seat on a Beech 1900, to six departures/day, costing $59 on a 402, people have no trouble riding on the 402.

True that. I only had one person in 2 years over there refuse to get onboard. Everyone else whined, complained, and buckled up.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

What's your point?

I'm not sure if you're making a slam on my airline, or just stating a fact. I'll assume you're just stating a fact.

Most of the towns we're talking about only have one carrier serving them. The issue is not a matter of competition, it's a matter of what passengers are willing to fly on.

Sure, if there is an airport out there with two carriers flying CRJ-200s in, and all of a sudden one carrier decides to stick Saab 340s on the route, while the other carrier continues jet service....more passengers would gravitate towards the jet, I think.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about if a single carrier downgrades a jet to a turboprop, or a turboprop to a piston twin, will people keep flying? I think they will.

I used my operator as an example. Beech 1900s were replaced by Cessna 402s and passenger loads went up, not down. People don't care what they fly on as much as schedule/frequency/reliability/price. When an airport goes from a couple departures per day, costing a couple hundred bucks/seat on a Beech 1900, to six departures/day, costing $59 on a 402, people have no trouble riding on the 402.

It is "essential" air service, is the point. Your airline (and to a lesser extent, mine) go into a handful of places nobody else does, which makes the demand inelastic.

I honestly think the public doesn't know what they're buying equipment wise when they buy a ticket - A.nutters excluded.


This post is brought to you by Beta. Beta: chicks dig it.

 

[jrh]

It is "essential" air service, is the point. Your airline (and to a lesser extent, mine) go into a handful of places nobody else does, which makes the demand inelastic.

Yes and no. Yes, there is a lack of competition. Yes, there is a government subsidy to hold ticket prices down. However, I think the comparison between former and current operators still shows passengers don't *really* care what they ride on. If they were so bothered by a piston versus a turbine, they'd drive rather than fly.

Yet they're not. They're flying more now than ever, in spite of less impressive aircraft. That's not inelastic demand. It proves demand is there...for the right combination of schedule/frequency/reliability/price. This principle applies to any route with any carrier, regardless of EAS designation or not.

I honestly think the public doesn't know what they're buying equipment wise when they buy a ticket - A.nutters excluded.

Agreed.

 

[scooter2525]

IAnd many get off smiling.

They were happy to be alive! BAAAAZINNNNNGGGG!!!

 

[etflies]

They were happy to be alive! BAAAAZINNNNNGGGG!!!

A while back a passenger said that to me as they deplaned. In a moment of fatigue and apathy induced weakness I responded "me too!" In retrospect, I said it far more sincerely than I mean it.

 

[scooter2525]

A while back a passenger said that to me as they deplaned. In a moment of fatigue and apathy induced weakness I responded "me too!" In retrospect, I said it far more sincerely than I mean it.

Whoops! Would have loved to hear that persons inter monolog.

 

[deadstick]

Another point about EAS is that many places are NOT that essential. The towns might think they deserve the service, but that just is not true. I believe the next step (should) will be a new minimum mileage. Hot Springs, AR is less than 60sm from Little Rock, but gets about $1.5M to connect to DAL and MEM. Jonesboro, AR IS 80sm from MEM, but gets about $1.7M to connect to STL...I guess they didn't get the memo that TWA doesn't have a hub there anymore. Hagerstown, MD IS 84sm from BWI, but we pay $1.2M so people don't have to drive. Don't get me wrong. I do think there are places in AK and some remote places in the midwest that need it, but many really do not.

 

[Roger Roger]

I could actually see a growth market for twin piston aircraft.

Need to get Piper to resurrect the chieftain with the TEO540 engines that are computer controlled and will burn mogas.

 

[jtrain609]

Need to get Piper to resurrect the chieftain with the TEO540 engines that are computer controlled and will burn mogas.

The Chieftain...with the most poorly designed landing gear system in the history of ever?

I love the Chieftain, but it's a flying piece of crap

 

[TallFlyer]

Need to get Piper to resurrect the chieftain with the TEO540 engines that are computer controlled and will burn mogas.

Add a G1000 w/ ADS-B and price it less than a Caravan and you'd have a winner for the Alaskan market, although there are a few places where the Van would still reign supreme.

For the lower 48, the Cessna 400 series might be a little better. Our 404s are cavernous compared to the Chieftain.

 

[TallFlyer]

The Chieftain...with the most poorly designed landing gear system in the history of ever?

I love the Chieftain, but it's a flying piece of crap

Us Alaska guys are always going to be partial to the Chieftain; it's just in our DNA. Can't say I've ever had problems with the gear aside from the indicator lights on short final. Go around, and if you can't get the light to work swap it out with one of the boot indicator lights.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

jrh, I think your airline is pretty damn cool, truth be told. For serious work, I prefer something tubopropeller powered (even single T-prop over twin reciprocating engines) but there's obviously a profitable market for operations with that airplane.

Edit: I may be convinced either way, though: I have no real strong opinions on the topic.

The Chieftain...with the most poorly designed landing gear system in the history of ever?

I love the Chieftain, but it's a flying piece of crap

Brasilia-NG.

They were happy to be alive! BAAAAZINNNNNGGGG!!!

Well of course...but yeah, many satisfied smiling Bro people.

 

[African_Swallow]

I wonder, how about one of the turboprop singles? I see a lot of PC12 charter activity out of our busy class D. Not sure about op cost, but I imagine less fuel $ than a Chieftain...and a much more attractive bird to pax!

 

[Roger Roger]

The Chieftain...with the most poorly designed landing gear system in the history of ever?

I love the Chieftain, but it's a flying piece of crap

Maybe on the early models...I'd have to say that the gear on the last built ones seems to be pretty good. Certainly beats a lot of the Twin Cessna gear systems!

 

[KLB]

Well I personally believe that the fairchild metroliner should be brought back into 121 passenger service in the US. They still fly them as airliners in Canada.

 

[killbilly]

Well I personally believe that the fairchild metroliner should be brought back into 121 passenger service in the US. They still fly them as airliners in Canada.

I am not 100% sure, but I believe I was a pax on a Metroliner going in to Great Falls, MT. Once.

Big Sky airlines, as I recall. It wasn't a pleasant flight.

 

[KLB]

There some things that could make a metro really rock these days. Mostly a new 5 bladed prop made out of composite material that is much quieter.