The Emirates Strike Back

typhoonpilot said:
Uh, did you read the report? The only money in it attributable to Emirates was an alleged fuel hedging loss that was taken over by the government. It amounted to $2.4 billion. That accusation has been denied by Emirates and the proof that the airline white paper has is circumstantial and vague at best.

So not $40 billion as you "mistakenly" say, but only $2.4 billion if true. That $700 million dividend along with roughly $100 to $200 million in dividends in practically every year since 2010 would go a long way to paying off any "loan" they may have received in 2008/09. Hardly a subsidized airline.


Typhoonpilot
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Have you done any reading other than what's in one report?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'm not aware of anyone arguing for a "protectionist" environment. Regardless, my post was regarding pension plans, so you responding to it in this fashion makes about as much sense as Ralph on The Simpsons answering "my cat's breath smells like cat food." Um, okay?
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"I ate the purple berries and they taste'es like burning."
 
mrivc211 said:
?? Emirates just gave a dividend of $700 million back to the govt of UAE. It's a very profitable airline.
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Just one more thing that I remembered. The US airline industry has contributed almost $250B (yes, that's billion) to the government, not received, but given. How's that stack up against what Emirates, Etihad AND Qatar(you got a number for that)? My guess, is like pocket change.
 
mshunter said:
Have you done any reading other than what's in one report?
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Actually yes, in the full 1000 page document they still can't provide proof of the alleged fuel hedging subsidy. Kind of makes the whole thing suspect to be honest.

No question that Etihad and Qatar have received a lot of money from their owners ( their respective governments). What I take issue with is that the U.S. airline consortium is trying to lump Emirates in with them. Sort of guilt by association, or guilt due to proximity. The real threat to the U.S. Airlines from a competitive standpoint is Emirates. They are incredibly well run and have a superb route network. Neither the U.S. airlines nor their code share partners are capable of competing with them on numerous routes. Not due to subsidy, but due to the fact that Emirates runs the routes with the best connection times and easiest transit methods. Add to that a transit through Dubai Duty Free (which has sales of over $1billion/year) and many customers will chose to fly on Emirates over any other airline/alliance).

mshunter said:
Just one more thing that I remembered. The US airline industry has contributed almost $250B (yes, that's billion) to the government, not received, but given. How's that stack up against what Emirates, Etihad AND Qatar(you got a number for that)? My guess, is like pocket change.
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Well actually, all three of them combined do provide a significant boost to the U.S. economy. They buy a lot of aircraft from Boeing. That equates to tens of thousands of jobs in the aerospace industry as a whole from their purchases alone. Add to that employment at airports and an increase in inbound tourism and there is significantly more positive benefit to the U.S. economy. Oh and they pay taxes and landing fees in the USA just as the U.S. carriers do.

I'm all for DAL, UAL, and AA doing well, but they need to compete better on the routes that the ME3 are serving. Neither they, nor their alliance partners, have stepped up and done any meaningful things to persuade passengers going to India, Pakistan, and other places in that area they are a better option......., and don't try to tell me it's all about price, because it certainly is not. Emirates is not cheap for the most part.

Look at IAH-BOM. Emirates is $1350 versus a KLM/Air France combo at $1178 and Lufthansa at $1189. The difference in time however, Emirates at 21 hours going and 26:40 on the return. KLM/Air France is 31:45 going and 34:55 return (2 stops). Lufthansa/UAL combo is actually pretty good at 22:15 going and 23:30 return, but it's also two stops versus one for Emirates. With Emirates you're guaranteed 600 channels of entertainment with your own screen and some pretty reasonable food, for an airline. Not to sure about the others.


Typhoonpilot
 
A few questions for you...

typhoonpilot said:
Actually yes, in the full 1000 page document they still can't provide proof of the alleged fuel hedging subsidy. Kind of makes the whole thing suspect to be honest.

No question that Etihad and Qatar have received a lot of money from their owners ( their respective governments). What I take issue with is that the U.S. airline consortium is trying to lump Emirates in with them. Sort of guilt by association, or guilt due to proximity. The real threat to the U.S. Airlines from a competitive standpoint is Emirates. They are incredibly well run and have a superb route network. Neither the U.S. airlines nor their code share partners are capable of competing with them on numerous routes. Not due to subsidy, but due to the fact that Emirates runs the routes with the best connection times and easiest transit methods. Add to that a transit through Dubai Duty Free (which has sales of over $1billion/year) and many customers will chose to fly on Emirates over any other airline/alliance).




Well actually, all three of them combined do provide a significant boost to the U.S. economy. They buy a lot of aircraft from Boeing. That equates to tens of thousands of jobs in the aerospace industry as a whole from their purchases alone. Add to that employment at airports and an increase in inbound tourism and there is significantly more positive benefit to the U.S. economy. Oh and they pay taxes and landing fees in the USA just as the U.S. carriers do.
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Very hypocritical for even bringing up 'honesty' considering Sharia Law is still in play in the ME3 countries!

Also, how does the following play a part with the fact that they are 'incredibly well run'...?

http://thepointsguy.com/2015/01/insider-series-true-life-of-an-emirates-flight-attendant

Seems like they can get away with a lot a civilized society doesn't put up with.

I'm all for DAL, UAL, and AA doing well, but they need to compete better on the routes that the ME3 are serving. Neither they, nor their alliance partners, have stepped up and done any meaningful things to persuade passengers going to India, Pakistan, and other places in that area they are a better option......., and don't try to tell me it's all about price, because it certainly is not. Emirates is not cheap for the most part.

Look at IAH-BOM. Emirates is $1350 versus a KLM/Air France combo at $1178 and Lufthansa at $1189. The difference in time however, Emirates at 21 hours going and 26:40 on the return. KLM/Air France is 31:45 going and 34:55 return (2 stops). Lufthansa/UAL combo is actually pretty good at 22:15 going and 23:30 return, but it's also two stops versus one for Emirates. With Emirates you're guaranteed 600 channels of entertainment with your own screen and some pretty reasonable food, for an airline. Not to sure about the others.


Typhoonpilot
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Ok, I looked!

United.com from IAH to BOM leaving September 15th, returning September 29th.

It is one stop each way, not the two you say, with a travel time of 19:55 going, 21:30 return.

I also looked at Lufthansa.com, same dates, one stop again, with a travel time of 22:40 going, 21:20 return.

So are you purposely trying to not give the full picture in your argument to make it sound better? Or just need to find other points to make?

Also, take a look at Dubai Inc...

http://www.openandfairskies.com/dubai-inc/?&utm_medium=email&utm_source=skies&utm_content=2 - Take a look at the web of Dubai Inc ndas&utm_campaign=Dubai Inc.&source=Dubai Inc.#web
 
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I've been to Dubai, and if what they have is Sharia law then it's not a bad law... A few ladies we met would agree. Puts Vegas to sham
 
Seggy said:
A few of those ladies may have been victims of sex trafficking....

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=amKSCFA_Fm3s

Also, look what Sharia Law says punishment should be for being gay.
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I recommend you take a trip to Dubai, since you have no clue what you are talking about right now. I'm not picking sides, even though I have met Typhoonpilot in Dubai, but you are making arguments out of left field, and not based on reality.
 
Stone Cold said:
I recommend you take a trip to Dubai, since you have no clue what you are talking about right now. I'm not picking sides, even though I have met Typhoonpilot in Dubai, but you are making arguments out of left field, and not based on reality.
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I haven't seen him say anything that wasn't true, with no basis in actual fact. Sure, it may be a nice place to visit, for most people. But...
 
Seggy said:
A few of those ladies may have been victims of sex trafficking....

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=amKSCFA_Fm3s

Also, look what Sharia Law says punishment should be for being gay.
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You do realize that sadly, sex trafficking goes on in many, many countries around he world.....even in the US and it has nothing to do with the airline. You might also be surprised to learn that are are gay men and women working at Emirates.
 
Stone Cold said:
I recommend you take a trip to Dubai, since you have no clue what you are talking about right now. I'm not picking sides, even though I have met Typhoonpilot in Dubai, but you are making arguments out of left field, and not based on reality.
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Oh, REALLY? So one needs to take a trip to understand what 'reality' is? Is that what you are saying?

Also, in the last two weeks I have spoken to two females who have traveled to Dubai. One flew there as a crew member in 2004ish and was enraged how she was treated as a female crew member. I spoke to another female who was in Dubai a few months ago and said it was really overrated. It is basically high rises and shopping malls.

Oh, if it is such a great place to be, then why did a Captain there leave for Spirit?

A Life Aloft said:
You do realize that sadly, sex trafficking goes on in many, many countries around he world.....even in the US
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Yes.

and it has nothing to do with the airline. You might also be surprised to learn that are are gay men and women working at Emirates.
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Did you bother to read the link I provided? If you did here is what is says...

What about the nice girl in the red tabard who cleaned up the shower in first class after you used it? Did you know that when she applied for the job she’s currently doing—probably at an open house event in Manila or Mumbai—she was told the title was “spa manager”? I don’t imagine an actual spa manager would willingly sign on to scrub toilets in Economy on a 14-hour flight from Dubai to Sydney. The girls with these particular jobs are treated even worse than the flight attendants they work alongside: they get only two-hour breaks on 14-hour flights, are shoe-horned into bedrooms with several other girls in their home-base accommodations, and are paid salaries that would make a fast-food worker in the states look like a millionaire. The ME3 see nothing wrong with misrepresenting their positions and deceiving their employees if in the end it brings in the profits on which they thrive
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Imagine if a US Airline did this? So, yes, it does have to do with the airline. They can pay slave wages, to provide this 'service'. That is bull crap.
 
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Seggy said:
A few questions for you...



Very hypocritical for even bringing up 'honesty' considering Sharia Law is still in play in the ME3 countries!
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Good grief :rolleyes:.

What the heck do my using the term "honesty" in regards to no evidence of the fuel hedging claims in the U.S. airlines 1000 page report and Sharia Law have to do with one another?

Seggy said:
Also, how does the following play a part with the fact that they are 'incredibly well run'...?

http://thepointsguy.com/2015/01/insider-series-true-life-of-an-emirates-flight-attendant

Seems like they can get away with a lot a civilized society doesn't put up with.
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Nice try, a sensational article that talks more about Qatar Airlines flight attendant issues than Emirates and in many cases is not even close to accurate or the true reality. Granted Emirates flight attendants work harder than their U.S. counterparts, but that article makes it sound much worse than it actually is.

Seggy said:
Ok, I looked!

United.com from IAH to BOM leaving September 15th, returning September 29th.

It is one stop each way, not the two you say, with a travel time of 19:55 going, 21:30 return.

I also looked at Lufthansa.com, same dates, one stop again, with a travel time of 22:40 going, 21:20 return.

So are you purposely trying to not give the full picture in your argument to make it sound better? Or just need to find other points to make?
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The dates I looked at were different, June going and July return. The fares were spot on, what were yours?



TP
 
Seggy said:
Oh, REALLY? So one needs to take a trip to understand what 'reality' is? Is that what you are saying?
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Well yes actually, it is known as an intelligent thing to do before you start talking about stuff you have no real clue about other than what you read in the press. You know, the press that is quite often wildly inaccurate.

Seggy said:
Did you bother to read the link I provided? If you did here is what is says...

What about the nice girl in the red tabard who cleaned up the shower in first class after you used it? Did you know that when she applied for the job she’s currently doing—probably at an open house event in Manila or Mumbai—she was told the title was “spa manager”? I don’t imagine an actual spa manager would willingly sign on to scrub toilets in Economy on a 14-hour flight from Dubai to Sydney. The girls with these particular jobs are treated even worse than the flight attendants they work alongside: they get only two-hour breaks on 14-hour flights, are shoe-horned into bedrooms with several other girls in their home-base accommodations, and are paid salaries that would make a fast-food worker in the states look like a millionaire. The ME3 see nothing wrong with misrepresenting their positions and deceiving their employees if in the end it brings in the profits on which they thrive
Click to expand...



Imagine if a US Airline did this? So, yes, it does have to do with the airline. They can pay slave wages, to provide this 'service'. That is bull crap.
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So here is that wildly inaccurate press thing sensationalized and exaggerated on even more by you. Where does it say "slave wages"? Do you even know what their pay and benefit package is?



TP
 
typhoonpilot said:
Good grief :rolleyes:.

What the heck do my using the term "honesty" in regards to no evidence of the fuel hedging claims in the U.S. airlines 1000 page report and Sharia Law have to do with one another?
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They are claims.

It is truthful that Sharia Law is in the UAE. If you peel back the onion layers of that system of law, men/women aren't treated as equals and you don't enjoy the freedom that our democratic society allows. The truth gets buried if you don't have a core standard of freedoms.


Nice try, a sensational article that talks more about Qatar Airlines flight attendant issues than Emirates and in many cases is not even close to accurate or the true reality. Granted Emirates flight attendants work harder than their U.S. counterparts, but that article makes it sound much worse than it actually is.
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Making assumptions I see about the genesis of the article and trying to play it down. Gotcha.


The dates I looked at were different, June going and July return. The fares were spot on, what were yours?
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I didn't look at the fares.

typhoonpilot said:
Well yes actually, it is known as an intelligent thing to do before you start talking about stuff you have no real clue about other than what you read in the press. You know, the press that is quite often wildly inaccurate.
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There are quite a few press articles out there about the issues in the ME3 countries. There are also civil rights organizations that are saying the same thing. If it smells like crap, it usually is!

But let me ask you this way. Do you have the same human rights in Dubai as you do in the United States?


So here is that wildly inaccurate press thing sensationalized and exaggerated on even more by you. Where does it say "slave wages"? Do you even know what their pay and benefit package is?
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Are you saying they don't have these attendants on the airplane? If you do have them on the airplane were they recruited using this trick? How much do they get paid? I am talking about the 'spa attendant', not the other F/As on board.
 
Seggy said:
It is truthful that Sharia Law is in the UAE. If you peel back the onion layers of that system of law, men/women aren't treated as equals and you don't enjoy the freedom that our democratic society allows. The truth gets buried if you don't have a core standard of freedoms.
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............and what does this have to do with airline competition?

I don't like communism, but China has airlines flying to the States. I'm personally fighting a bitter and protracted legal issue in China, but never has it crossed my mind to bar Chinese carriers access to the USA as a result of it.

I think it just smacks of racism and prejudice to even bring up Sharia Law when discussing the issue of airline competition.



Typhoonpilot
 
typhoonpilot said:
............and what does this have to do with airline competition?

I don't like communism, but China has airlines flying to the States. I'm personally fighting a bitter and protracted legal issue in China, but never has it crossed my mind to bar Chinese carriers access to the USA as a result of it.

I think it just smacks of racism and prejudice to even bring up Sharia Law when discussing the issue of airline competition.



Typhoonpilot
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Why should we be celebrating these new shiny jets coming to our cities when they gain an unfair advantage by the way they treat their work force? They are allowed to treat their work force because of the laws and customs of their country.

Also, I assure you. If Air China Southern wanted to flood the market in the United States like the ME3 want to do, the response would be the same.
 
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