@69_Bug_Dude just finished ATP. He was still married with kids when I had dinner with him three weeks ago 
The Current Market for Pilots
- Thread starter loftyleafedlindens
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rockman2343@aol.com
Well-Known Member
Get your private at a local FBO. the cost of ATPs zero to hero programs are is $64,995 if you do not have your private, and $49995 if you do. that's a difference of 15K, which is way to much for a private pilot cert in my opinion. I'm thinking if you study correctly, have an instructor that's not milking you for flight hours you can get the private for between 5K-8K, huge savings right off the bat.
As far as opportunities in aviation, there are a lot, right now. As things are right now, once you get some turbine experience you should have some options, just make sure you are actively looking for them. For someone with no issues, spending a year at the regionals building experience should start opening some doors (not at the majors but for other types of stuff, corporate, air ambulance etc)
As far as opportunities in aviation, there are a lot, right now. As things are right now, once you get some turbine experience you should have some options, just make sure you are actively looking for them. For someone with no issues, spending a year at the regionals building experience should start opening some doors (not at the majors but for other types of stuff, corporate, air ambulance etc)
chrisreedrules
Master Blaster
I stopped flight instructing full time about a year or so ago and if I remember correctly, $15K is the new average for a PPL. Not an "every man" hobby like it once was by any stretch of the imagination. How many people do you think would own boats if the cost to learn how to drive it was $15K?
And I think it is misleading to say that you can go spend a year at the regionals and the doors will open up. Most guys that I know who have gone 121 have a harder time going to corporate or 135 passenger ops than if they would have just done that originally at 1500 hours or so. Not that there aren't exceptions... As it is with everything in life, it's all who you know.
rockman2343@aol.com
Well-Known Member
Disclaimer: In my opinion
If you are paying 15K for a private pilots license you are either getting it through ATP, a big flight university or it is taking you 80 hours. Here's the math based
$150 for the plane-assuming you can't use a 152 or find a cheaper 172 which I believe is possible
$50 for the instructor
40 Hours for the Private pilots license of which 20 has to be with an instructor and 10 solo. Lets just say 25 dual 15 solo and an extra 5 hours of dual on top of it
25*200=5000
15*150=2250
5*200=1000
For a total of $8250, and I think the aircraft rate is a little high. Throw in a couple hundred for Jepp kit.
As for being misleading, I'm just going off my experience and research. I'm not saying United, XO Jet or any of their peers are going to call you after a year, just that you will have other options outside the regionals. During and after my first year however I landed interviews with a couple smaller 135 gigs, some air ambulance companies, as well as a couple of part 135 cargo companies out of Michigan. I haven't been able to take advantage of most because of not having my Canada paperwork yet, which is why I said "for someone with no issues."
Finny
Well-Known Member
I guess I am an anomaly then. I started flight training in the beginning of 2012, went to a smaller FBO, flight instructed, flew an aerial survey season, and now have landed a FO spot at a reputable 135 operation and am making a pretty good pay check flying King Airs. This, while all maintaining a very happy marriage and all my Army National Guard responsibilities. It is possible, but you have to work at it and have some decent luck. This is where you location in the USA matters greatly. If you're in rural county municipal airport, your path will be greatly different than someone starting out in a busy Class B terminal area with many airports and options for employment. Communication from day zero really helped to manage our expectations of what my new flight career will bring and how much money we will be making the first few years. Her having knowledge of each step in the progression towards being a commercial/CFI/marketable pilot helped her a great deal.
Avoid debt, check out your local airport and bum as many free rides as you can, communicate with your wife, and network from day zero. Best advice I can offer from my experiences so far!
Avoid debt, check out your local airport and bum as many free rides as you can, communicate with your wife, and network from day zero. Best advice I can offer from my experiences so far!
FedUp
Well-Known Member
truth hurts. unless youre already wealthy looking for a giggle or have mommy and daddy to pay, youre totally screwed in this biz.
also be prepared to hang out with a bunch of tools who have no social skills and prefer a big metal tube instead of a gal (or guy) at home and friends to see and socialize with more than once a month!
TRUTH.
FedUp
Well-Known Member
cool story. you have a long way between 40hrs PPL and 1500hrs ATP to have the glorious luxury of making 22k.
Yeah, don't listen to this guy. Granted, I'm divorced, but it would have happened no matter the job I had. Do I struggle to pay bills? Sure do. Do my kids and family respect me, and enjoy the time I spend with them? Even more so now. Why? Because I like what I do, and it reflects in my attitude when I'm home. I'm chasing my dreams. And you can't put a price tag on that.
A Life Aloft
Well-Known Member
None of this b.s. is the truth. If this is the negative reality that you are living, blame yourself. Quit whining/complaining and do something about it already. Your failures are just that. Yours. Everyone else on the planet is not doomed to repeat your personal history, or have your same experience. Get over it. You keep mentioning having no friends. With your piss poor attitude, this comes as no surprise. You also keep viewing everyone else as a tool. Maybe you need to look in the mirror. We get it ......aviation has not worked out for you. That doesn't have to translate to the rest of humanity. Go do something else. It's a big world with a plethora of opportunities. Quit wearing your bitterness like a crown and parading it around. We've seen it. In fact, that's all we've seen from you. Rinse, lather, repeat.
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A Life Aloft
Well-Known Member
Way to be supportive! Good job!!! We can always count on your little rays of sunshine can't we?
I know that misery demands company, but why can't miserable people just find each other instead of trying to convert others?
tonyw
Well-Known Member
First thing I would do is get your private, and do it as inexpensively as you can. See if you really like it. Some people think they do, but then they decide, you know, it's not really all that fun to me. And if it's not fun to you when you're just flying around on a clear and a million day, it sure as hell ain't gonna be fun for you when it becomes a job.
Second, do the number for your finances. You may be the outlier, but to get to 1500, you are probably going to be a CFI somewhere making wages that will qualify you for food stamps. As a first officer at a regional starting out, you will qualify for food stamps as well.
Can your finances take that hit?
Here is what you don't want to happen. You don't want to get into a lot of debt paying for training and then not be able to pay that debt and live on the income that you will likely make when the training is done.
Second, do the number for your finances. You may be the outlier, but to get to 1500, you are probably going to be a CFI somewhere making wages that will qualify you for food stamps. As a first officer at a regional starting out, you will qualify for food stamps as well.
Can your finances take that hit?
Here is what you don't want to happen. You don't want to get into a lot of debt paying for training and then not be able to pay that debt and live on the income that you will likely make when the training is done.
milleR
Well-Known Member
None of this b.s. is the truth. If this is the negative reality that you are living, blame yourself. Quit whining/complaining and do something about it already.
My guess is that people like this don't know how to do something about it, hence the "poor me" attitude. After all, it's the worlds fault, not theirs. Pathetic, but true.
JDean3204
Well-Known Member
Life is just so dang hard isn't it? No one forces any of us at gunpoint to start this career path, so why don't you just give up and start something new? Instead of spreading your negativity across a forum that many people use to get advice and guidance.
To the OP, definitely take things that certain people say with a grain of salt as it is their sole purpose to deter others from becoming a professional pilot. However, if you get past some of the negative nancy's, there is a glut of good information on here that will benefit you and your future endeavors.
KatanaHawk
Well-Known Member
As others have said, start with your private and see how you like it. Go to a reputable but smaller school. Avoid debt. And just have fun with it!
Also study as much as you can. In my experience the difference between a student who does PPL in 80 hours versus 45 hours is the 45 hour guy is always showing up prepared for his lessons, has studied and memorized the maneuvers, asks questions, etc. You may have heard it before but the airplane is a lousy classroom (lots of distractions). It is the place to practice what you already know and refine your physical control of the airplane. Chair flying (going through maneuvers on the ground in front of a cockpit poster, or doing the same in the aircraft with the engine off) was super helpful to me in my training and has also been extremely helpful to the students who have taken that suggestion. It will really cut done on the cost and make you a better pilot long term.
Also study as much as you can. In my experience the difference between a student who does PPL in 80 hours versus 45 hours is the 45 hour guy is always showing up prepared for his lessons, has studied and memorized the maneuvers, asks questions, etc. You may have heard it before but the airplane is a lousy classroom (lots of distractions). It is the place to practice what you already know and refine your physical control of the airplane. Chair flying (going through maneuvers on the ground in front of a cockpit poster, or doing the same in the aircraft with the engine off) was super helpful to me in my training and has also been extremely helpful to the students who have taken that suggestion. It will really cut done on the cost and make you a better pilot long term.
JDean3204
Well-Known Member
I definitely second this, chair flying can save you hundreds of dollars if not thousands later on in training (multi-add on). Getting all the checklists down and knowing all the procedures makes it that much easier, plus it is frustrating when you are in the air, spending money every time that hobbs meter clicks over and all you seem to be doing is stumbling through the procedures.
cezzna
Well-Known Member
The beginning is/was bleak, but you never know what life has in store for you. When I was at the puppy mill in 1993, they instituted the pay for training bullcrappery. So then you had to pony up 10k just to make 18k. Well that wasn't going to happen for me. The market was crap but I just kept my nose to the grindstone and instructed for four years. Then the market got HOT and suddenly with 2000 hours, much growth(instructing is invaluable experience) I was a hot commodity in a blazing hot hiring market. I could have gone to Comair as they had to dump their PFT crap but was much wiser by then. I managed to hop from instructing to flying light jets with a local jet management outfit. This led to an even better opportunity for an in house quality 91 corporate job. 15 years later I am still here, fat, dumb, and happy. Pay is good, QOL is great, and I don't ever have to play airline roulette.
To be fair to the married trainees, the puppy mills don't really attract these guys. If you have a family, you have to dig deeper and look for other options. I could have done it cheaper staying local, but back in 'the day' the price difference between the local FBO and the puppy mills was not as significant as it is now.
Don't ever paint yourself into the 'regional only' corner of flying. If I had gone this route, I probably would have gotten out of the game by now. It's been next to impossible to for my vintage of pilot (or any vintage for that matter) to make it through a regional, then to a legacy/national without furloughs, mergers, blah blah blah. Glad I never tried that game.
To be fair to the married trainees, the puppy mills don't really attract these guys. If you have a family, you have to dig deeper and look for other options. I could have done it cheaper staying local, but back in 'the day' the price difference between the local FBO and the puppy mills was not as significant as it is now.
Don't ever paint yourself into the 'regional only' corner of flying. If I had gone this route, I probably would have gotten out of the game by now. It's been next to impossible to for my vintage of pilot (or any vintage for that matter) to make it through a regional, then to a legacy/national without furloughs, mergers, blah blah blah. Glad I never tried that game.
uncreative
Well-Known Member
Just as point of reference, I'm 39 with a wife and kid and a job, so I went with the local fbo and flew eves and weekends. I recently completed my PPL at around 70 hours, $14K and change. $115/hour for the plane and $48/hour for the instructor. I came into flight training having passed the written. In my experience with 3 different flight schools, the instructor would bill for pre and post flight briefings, plus the time that we spent getting gas, so the instructor time was usually at least +1 hour over flight time when I did dual. My instructor was ready to sign me off at 55 hours, but the DPE had scheduling issues and I continued to fly solo to stay sharp. Given that ATP charges $15K and you come out with 100 hours, it would have been a better deal for me, but not practical since I have to keep working to pay as I go.
chrisreedrules
Master Blaster
I know a lot of students think it is unfair for instructors to charge for their time aside from physically teaching... But hey, instructors gotta eat too. ...Not saying you thought this was unfair or anything, just giving my perspective on it.