The Cargo Carve Out

[Autothrust Blue]

Morning (evening)...

Since I don’t fly freight, I wanted to get freight pilot opinions on whether or not 121 freight operations should be required to comply with Part 117.

There is presently a bill before the House (https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/news-room/2019-11-19-enhanced-fatigue-rules-for-all-cargo-ops) that would mandate such compliance, and while on a pure science and task equivalence basis I support such a thing, I figured I’d ask some people who live the freight dog life for their opinions.

Thanks!

 

[NickH]

If far rather risk fatigue-related mistakes, along with health implications and a shorter life span so that I can be more productive for my company....

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Yeah. This job is terrible for you. Anything to make it just a little better.

 

[amorris311]

Yeah. This job is terrible for you. Anything to make it just a little better.

Sent the form letters to my representatives this morning.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Sent the form letters to my representatives this morning.

Thanks amigo.

You may be responsible for me living an extra 6 months past retirement!

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Sent the form letters to my representatives this morning.

There's been some amount of screeching from some FDX pilots I know, saying that it will "kill their schedules." Since I have positively no idea what's in most of those lines (though I assume it looks a lot like jungle turns and the like at my employer), I don't know if I should buy it or not. Moreover, I am not particularly eager to have that experience myself.

I do know that the consecutive nighttime operations rules vaguely resemble the night-hub-turn thing (fly there, nap, fly back, "day rest"), and even allow for five in a row in that arrangement. I know, too, that the schedule the UPS 1354 pilots were on happened to comply with 117.

 

[BlueMoon]

There's been some amount of screeching from some FDX pilots I know, saying that it will "kill their schedules." Since I have positively no idea what's in most of those lines (though I assume it looks a lot like jungle turns and the like at my employer), I don't know if I should buy it or not. Moreover, I am not particularly eager to have that experience myself.

I do know that the consecutive nighttime operations rules vaguely resemble the night-hub-turn thing (fly there, nap, fly back, "day rest"), and even allow for five in a row in that arrangement. I know, too, that the schedule the UPS 1354 pilots were on happened to comply with 117.

The bulk of the night hub turns essentially resemble Continuous duty overnights, with anywhere from 90 minutes to 4 hours in between block in and out. Most turns are in the 2-3 hour break in my experience, giving you about a 2 hour sleep opportunity in the sleep rooms.

It’s been a few years since I looked at 117, but With a Continues Duty overnight I think there had to be 3 hour break and it couldn’t be reduced? So if you are delayed inbound they had to push the outbound flight in the morning. Sound right?

The company probably wouldn’t enjoy that, due to having to delay outbound flights in the morning. Also, then you would land a couple hours later with the sun blasting you in the face making it harder to fall asleep at the hotel. So I’m not sure I like that idea.

Honestly, I’d like to see them publish a bid pack or two with lines constructed completely to 117 regs so I could see what they look like.

So my response is, I don’t know.

 

[amorris311]

There's been some amount of screeching from some FDX pilots I know, saying that it will "kill their schedules." Since I have positively no idea what's in most of those lines (though I assume it looks a lot like jungle turns and the like at my employer), I don't know if I should buy it or not. Moreover, I am not particularly eager to have that experience myself.

I do know that the consecutive nighttime operations rules vaguely resemble the night-hub-turn thing (fly there, nap, fly back, "day rest"), and even allow for five in a row in that arrangement. I know, too, that the schedule the UPS 1354 pilots were on happened to comply with 117.

While I understand some of the more established cargo carriers might have some issues with schedules, the meat of this initiative is to gain traction with the supplemental certs. It’s a long arduous process, which can be infuriating, but addressing the issue so all pilots in the USA can have some semblance of long term physical health is good.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

While I understand some of the more established cargo carriers might have some issues with schedules, the meat of this initiative is to gain traction with the supplemental certs. It’s a long arduous process, which can be infuriating, but addressing the issue so all pilots in the USA can have some semblance of long term physical health is good.

Just my thoughts.

You can get around the rules via FRMS too. Which I’d imagine a certain Memphis based airline is politically well heeled, connected, and rich enough to do.

 

[z987k]

Something that would go a long way for me is to ban rest periods in the 20-26 hour range. What happens there is you get in, sleep 8 or so, wake up have an entire wake cycle then report for an 18 hour duty right when you should be going to sleep again. You land having been awake, minus maybe a 2hr nap for 30 hours or so. Repeat indefinitely.

 

[amorris311]

You can get around the rules via FRMS too. Which I’d imagine a certain Memphis based airline is politically well heeled, connected, and rich enough to do.

Yea you’re right about that. Although I think the FDX pilot contract has enough protections in their scheduling section to make that somewhat of a moot point. It’s has been a couple of years since I last looked at their contract but if my memory serves me correct they have stricter rules then 117.

 

[bike21]

Letter sent!

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Yea you’re right about that. Although I think the FDX pilot contract has enough protections in their scheduling section to make that somewhat of a moot point. It’s has been a couple of years since I last looked at their contract but if my memory serves me correct they have stricter rules then 117.

Here’s a meme I prepared earlier.

 

[ASpilot2be]

Night operators should come up with something that works for them, not CC what day operators do.

But a lot of the "day" operators do the same schedules as some of the night operators. I do so much middle of the night flying at my ulcc.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Be that as it may, my point is that the proper solution derives from assessing the problem and devising something that addresses the need, not just copying what worked for something else. If 117 turns out to be the proper solution, then so be it. But don't implement something just for the sake of looking like you're doing something.

117 used science to come up with rest rules that took into account circadian rhythm and time zone changes. Can’t imagine anything more applicable to regulations regarding rest than that.

 

[Roger Roger]

117 used science to come up with rest rules that took into account circadian rhythm and time zone changes. Can’t imagine anything more applicable to regulations regarding rest than that.

Don’t pay attention to qxdx. It’s pretty apparent that ever since he got his medical denied he hates pilots, especially union ones. Comes out in pretty much any thread he posts in.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Don’t pay attention to qxdx. It’s pretty apparent that ever since he got his medical denied he hates pilots, especially union ones. Comes out in pretty much any thread he posts in.

Gracias. I don’t remember him.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Night operators should come up with something that works for them, not CC what day operators do.

...

117 used science to come up with rest rules that took into account circadian rhythm and time zone changes. Can’t imagine anything more applicable to regulations regarding rest than that.

WREKT

 

[falconvalley]

The safety reps at my carrier (K4) did the math and feel that 117 would result in little change in operations beyond a handful of excessively long days. I can’t speak for the 76 domestic folks. Those WOCKL...WOCR...WOKER???...anyway, that section makes my head spin.

My take is for augmented, multi-theater operations. The 4 pilot duty day is a wee bit short. To fly somewhere 16 hours away and only have 30 minutes to play with is pretty limiting. 30 hours duty is ridiculous. 24 is about as far as I feel safe, with a really good nap. But with a few more pilots on staff, the 117 rules would probably work fine at my company (on the 747, at least). On a contractual note, it might hurt the paycheck a bit, depending on which pilot you talk to. So, we’d have to focus on addressing that. I’m only mentioning it because it will eventually come up. But academically, I‘m mostly for 117, with a few reservations.