Terrible... Fatal BHM accident..

If they pocketed the money and knew they were using less than what they needed to, then yes they should get in trouble. But if it was an honest mistake, I don't think they should be sent to jail. Our country loves to sue about everything and point the blame. Soon enough people are going to be too scared to even build something because they will be afraid of the lawsuits that could follow. It's sad really that people who build quality things are still held responsible if some freak accident occurs.
 
When is the last time that a pilot was sent to jail (or charged with a crime) for making a bad decision?


Unfortunately many pilots don't live to regret their poor decisions.

America West Pilots Jailed for 5 and 2.5 years for being Drunk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_West_Airlines_Flight_556

Drunk Thompson Pilot Jailed 6 months
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...epared-fly-200-passengers-Canary-Islands.html

Air Show Pilots Jailed after crash - 14 years
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/06/24/ukraine.airshow/index.html?_s=PM:WORLD

Delta Pilot Jailed - 6 month
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/24/george-la-perle-drunk-del_n_813161.html
 
I'm talking about being jailed/charged for making a mistake or a bad decision, not for showing up drunk (illegal activity).
 
I'm talking about being jailed/charged for making a mistake or a bad decision, not for showing up drunk (illegal activity).

Showing up drunk isn't a bad decision?

Crashing two planes during an air show due to poor planning isn't a bad decision?

Didn't the KLEX FO, get jail time?

I don't believe the Comair pilot was. But if IIRC there was a pilot showboating in a biplane a couple of years ago and killed his passenger when the plane crashed. The pilot was tried, convicted and jailed in the U.S.

Had the pilots of 3701 survived they may have faced charges.
 
Showing up drunk isn't a bad decision?

Of course it is, but they were jailed for breaking the law regarding alcohol use, not for bad aeronautical decision making.

Crashing two planes during an air show due to poor planning isn't a bad decision?
Outside of the United States - our laws don't apply.

I don't believe the Comair pilot was. But if IIRC there was a pilot showboating in a biplane a couple of years ago and killed his passenger when the plane crashed. The pilot was tried, convicted and jailed in the U.S.

I'd be interested in hearing more about that one.

Had the pilots of 3701 survived they may have faced charges.
I'm curious about Mark's response.
 
Very interesting.

I think maybe we're straying from what started this line of conversation. Here's my take on it:
1. People were calling for jail time for the workers/designers of the failed BHM signage if they "made a mistake" that caused the loss of life.
2. Others contended that pilots are/can be jailed for making mistakes, so others should too.
3. I (and at least one other) expressed the idea that "mistakes" are not/should not be a cause for jail time.
4. Back and forth ensued until now we are talking about drunk pilots and negligent pilots, not pilots that have been charged because of an honest screw-up / mistake / error in judgement.
 
If it's negligence, absolutely. An honest to god mistake? Debatable.

If they used liquid nails to hold up a 400lb, 8 foot tall display case, well that's just negligence in my opinion. Hell, even my Target standup 50 lb cabinet came with an anchor screw and cable to prevent tipping over.
 
A few points need to be made here.

First, RIP to the victim in BHM.

Secondly, I would say it is NOT a mistake showing up to fly an airplane under the influence. Alcoholism is a disease and showing up to work with alcohol in the system is a by product of that disease. I'm not saying what happens is right and jail time is the punishment at times, but I would not categorize that as a mistake, it is a symptom of the disease.

Thirdly, in the United States it boils down to intent in our justice system when an accident happens. Basically the assumption our legal system takes is that everyone is trying their best to avoid an accident and that if a mistake does happen where people get hurt, well, it was a tragic accident. Cases in point, the pilots of 3701 did not intend to take off on the wrong runway killing everyone, the pilots of the American Airlines MD-80 in LIT did not intend to exit the runway, the pilots of the SWA flight in MDW did not intend to land long exiting on a street, the engineers that designed the DC-10 Hydraulic System that caused the Sioux City Accident did not intend it to fail, or the Boeing Engineers that designed the center fuel tanks for the 747 that contributed to the TWA 800 Accident did not intend it to fail.

The article Bandit_Driver cites has a lot of flags that raise my eyebrows. Flying 50 feet off the ground can be seen as negligent behavior and there was some confusion about what the pilot was doing there (was he taking money as a private pilot?), so there may be something more in that example. If one wants a good example of what constitutes negligence in the United States take a look at two examples. The 2005 Teterboro crash of a Challenger which SteveC, TFaudree_ERAU, mikecweb can probably add some details to...

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/11/jury_in_teterboro_plane_crash.html

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/11/pilot_in_teterboro_airport_cra.html

and the ValueJet crash in the Everglades...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592

http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2011/0...rash-airline-mechanic-771.html?pagewanted=all

ATN_Pilot can probably go into more detail there but notice how the airline was NOT prosecuted, only SabreTech?

Fourthly, there are countries that DO throw pilots in jail for mistakes and they have horrific safety cultures. A lot of the Napoleonic Code countries do and places like China and Russia. I talked to an ALPA Air Safety guy that talked to a crew that had an altitude deviation in China. When they landed they were thrown in jail with the language barrier and the fact that the ATC tape could not be 'found' by the Chinese, it is very well possible that the crew heard one thing that the Chinese ATC was saying, but the ATC person did not know he was giving the wrong/different clearance. Also, look at the saga that the Legacy Pilots faced after the GOL Mid Air. Look at places like China, Russia, and Brazil, the United States is so much safer to fly around than those places and that points to the next point

Finally, throwing pilots/controllers/mechanics/engineers in jail for honest mistakes is horrific for the cultivation of the just safety cultures we should all strive for. Mistakes happen, sometimes tragic, but we should all learn from our mistakes and be able to share them without fear of reprisal. If one has an overrun on a snowy runway where no one gets hurt, the crew needs to be debriefed, see what happened, and changes made to the system to prevent it from happening again where some people may get hurt. If we throw people in jail for instances like this, where they had good intentions, we will be taking huge step back wards in aviation safety here in the United States.
 
Finally, throwing pilots/controllers/mechanics/engineers in jail for honest mistakes is horrific for the cultivation of the just safety cultures we should all strive for. Mistakes happen, sometimes tragic, but we should all learn from our mistakes and be able to share them without fear of reprisal. If one has an overrun on a snowy runway where no one gets hurt, the crew needs to be debriefed, see what happened, and changes made to the system to prevent it from happening again where some people may get hurt. If we throw people in jail for instances like this, where they had good intentions, we will be taking huge step back wards in aviation safety here in the United States.

Thank you...that was a very well-thought-out expansion of what I was trying to suggest.

-Fox
 
Seggy Excellent points and you are by far a better orator than I. You make do make some valid points. I do agree with you about intent being a factor in our legal system, but that does only go so far in our system as well. People go to jail everyday for involuntary manslaughter for not intending to kill anyone.

Involuntary manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought, either express or implied. It is distinguished from voluntary manslaughter by the absence of intention

Negligence is a failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances.

pullup I agree with what you said if it was just liquid nails. Common sense says that isn't enough. But we still don't know why it fell and will have to wait and see.
 
Bandit_Driver, about involuntary manslaughter, I did a google search and came up with one accident in the USA in recent times where one pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/12/new_hampshire_resident_steven.html

Even in that case he was flying multi engine airplane and was not qualified for it.

In the USA an involuntary manslaughter case in an aircraft accident would be exceedingly rare (I hope it stays that way). Victims families want compensation for their loss from insurance payouts and focus on that. Our wannabe lawyer jtrain609, could probably give a more in depth legal perspective, but with the tort stuff, I would say, involuntary manslaughter would be hard to prosecute unless some sort of negligence (like above) was involved.

Furthermore, it would be hard to draw a line on involuntary manslaughter. Take for example the Colgan accident. Our manuals on the Q400 sucked, yet were approved by the FAA Administrator through the POI. Would the FAA Administrator and POI be thrown in jail for involuntary manslaughter because mistakes were made with the manuals?
 
Furthermore, it would be hard to draw a line on involuntary manslaughter. Take for example the Colgan accident. Our manuals on the Q400 sucked, yet were approved by the FAA Administrator through the POI. Would the FAA Administrator and POI be thrown in jail for involuntary manslaughter because mistakes were made with the manuals?


An FAA repairman can be sent to prison for faulty overhauls/repairs, I would assume a manual with glaring errors could send someone to prison as well, but I'm just speculating.
 
pullup said:
An FAA repairman can be sent to prison for faulty overhauls/repairs, I would assume a manual with glaring errors could send someone to prison as well, but I'm just speculating.

If they are purposely faulty about the repairs then yes. I bet you can't find anyone sent to jail for making an honest mistake in a repair that led to an accident.
 
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