Terminated

I have contacted the labor department and an attorney.

Initially I was told that tomorrow was going to be my last day, then when I returned after work my airport credential badge was gone. I was then told that after my "outburst" I was no longer welcome on the ramp or in the hangar and that I will not be returning tomorrow.

I want to make it clear that I did not have any outburst, I simply informed him that I had done everything that they had asked except for the areas which were illegal. When told that car salesmen work unpaid for commission I told them that I would contact the labor department to get their interpretation.

For anyone else who is about to start your career please pay careful attention to what you are doing. After getting my CFI I had 3 offers on the table and selected this one believing it to be the best. I knew the owner and chief instructor and considered them friends, I never thought that I would be stabbed in the back like this, drug through the mud, and be the target of possibly slanderous and libelous words.

Now I get to search for a new job, and this time I have some experience under my belt.

Live and learn, tomorrow is another day....and at least I have the weekend off, which hasn't happened in a month.
 
File for unemployment while you are doing what you need to do legally. This will increase their liability to state and federal unemployment insurance due to a legitimate case for unemployment.

Also, document, document, document. Anything you have supporting your position will help. Go talk to a lawyer...depending on state laws, you may not have a case (right to work states, etc.) but at least you will have the knowledge for the future of what "they" can get away with.

Lastly, update this post. I know, especially if there is a lawsuit out of it, you may not be able to provide much info, but anything you can provide will help future CFI's, and others in similar situations.

If you are able to provide more information later, I vote this post be a sticky for future reference...good luck no matter what!
 
I was on the OP's side 100% until I saw the sales comparison. It got me thinking. What's the real difference between flight instructing and a 100% commission sales job? Both can be W2 employees. How is it okay for commission-based sales jobs to operate legally but somehow this type of flight instructing job is bad?

Not that I'm against the OP or anything - as a former contract flight instructor where I relied on nobody but me to get students and as a former medical device sales rep the subject just piqued my interest.
 
Ian J said:
I was on the OP's side 100% until I saw the sales comparison. It got me thinking. What's the real difference between flight instructing and a 100% commission sales job? Both can be W2 employees. How is it okay for commission-based sales jobs to operate legally but somehow this type of flight instructing job is bad?

Not that I'm against the OP or anything - as a former contract flight instructor where I relied on nobody but me to get students and as a former medical device sales rep the subject just piqued my interest.
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As far as I'm concerned, the difference is the sales guy/gal signed up for a commision-based program. Just like when I bartended and waited wables, it was based on tips. As a CFI, they are depending on hourly wages to make a meager living. Also, the IRS has their input on what is acceptable and what is not, and from my understanding, this is not acceptable, based on the information provided.
 
Stone Cold said:
As far as I'm concerned, the difference is the sales guy/gal signed up for a commision-based program. Just like when I bartended and waited wables, it was based on tips. As a CFI, they are depending on hourly wages to make a meager living. Also, the IRS has their input on what is acceptable and what is not, and from my understanding, this is not acceptable, based on the information provided.
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I wonder if instead of quitting he would have had more success if he negotiated with his boss? Maybe he could have offered instead of hanging out being useless answering phones he could hunt for business which would in turn bring in more revenue. That would have traded 8 hours of BS work with probably 12+ hours of hard work and may have netted the school more money.

And agreed - the fact he knew not what he was getting into in the first place is a major thing, no doubt. He did specifically state this was a new policy making him sit around unpaid. I only wonder if this hardship could have been turned into an opportunity.
 
Ian J said:
I wonder if instead of quitting he would have had more success if he negotiated with his boss? Maybe he could have offered instead of hanging out being useless answering phones he could hunt for business which would in turn bring in more revenue. That would have traded 8 hours of BS work with probably 12+ hours of hard work and may have netted the school more money.

And agreed - the fact he knew not what he was getting into in the first place is a major thing, no doubt. He did specifically state this was a new policy making him sit around unpaid. I only wonder if this hardship could have been turned into an opportunity.
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Doubtful.
 
Ian J said:
I was on the OP's side 100% until I saw the sales comparison. It got me thinking. What's the real difference between flight instructing and a 100% commission sales job? Both can be W2 employees. How is it okay for commission-based sales jobs to operate legally but somehow this type of flight instructing job is bad?

Not that I'm against the OP or anything - as a former contract flight instructor where I relied on nobody but me to get students and as a former medical device sales rep the subject just piqued my interest.
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Well, if you are being paid as a sales rep - fine. In that case, I guess you would be owed commissions on everything you sold though. Firing someone doesn't mean you don't have to pay commissions - employers have tried that one before.

Any sales job on a 1099 basis is kind of sketchy anyway.
 
jtrain609 said:
Doubtful.
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Why? (I have my own thoughts about how it would be doubtful as well... let's see if they match!)

drunkenbeagle said:
Well, if you are being paid as a sales rep - fine. In that case, I guess you would be owed commissions on everything you sold though. Firing someone doesn't mean you don't have to pay commissions - employers have tried that one before.

Any sales job on a 1099 basis is kind of sketchy anyway.
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Well, sure - but none of that applies to his situation.
 
Ian J said:
I wonder if instead of quitting he would have had more success if he negotiated with his boss? Maybe he could have offered instead of hanging out being useless answering phones he could hunt for business which would in turn bring in more revenue. That would have traded 8 hours of BS work with probably 12+ hours of hard work and may have netted the school more money.

And agreed - the fact he knew not what he was getting into in the first place is a major thing, no doubt. He did specifically state this was a new policy making him sit around unpaid. I only wonder if this hardship could have been turned into an opportunity.
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From what I read, and it's late here, so maybe I didn't read it right, but, I think he was fired. So, new policy for him and, which, as far as I know is illegal in the eyes of the IRS, makes it pretty much the only reason lawyers should be around (did you like that one Jtrain???:)).

I am not a lawyer or a law student, so take with a grain of salt. Even if you have no money to pursue in court, I would contact AOPA legal if you are a member and see what they say. Once again, good luck no matter what happens!!
 
Stone Cold said:
From what I read, and it's late here, so maybe I didn't read it right, but, I think he was fired. So, new policy for him and, which, as far as I know is illegal in the eyes of the IRS, makes it pretty much the only reason lawyers should be around (did you like that one Jtrain???:)).

I am not a lawyer or a law student, so take with a grain of salt. Even if you have no money to pursue in court, I would contact AOPA legal if you are a member and see what they say. Once again, good luck no matter what happens!!
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I hate lawyers, personally, and don't have an opinion other than abject pessimism.
 
Ajax BU said:
policy required me to be at the office 6 days a week for 8 hours a day without pay except for my time with students.
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This is very common with small flight schools. I left my 2nd CFI job for a similar reason. There was no policy requiring CFIs to be at the school without pay but it was something that the manager expected and asked us to do daily. They have one person handling both FBO and flight school work so they wanted instructors to stay around, answer calls, help with the FBO customers but you only get paid for instructing. You can spend a whole day there and be busy all day without pay. Me and 3 other instructors quit within the same month because they started scheduling us for flights and when you get to the school you are told the student cancelled and asked to stay around just in case someone shows up. I finally confronted them when my regular days off where opened up for scheduling. I quit after that event. There are many CFI jobs out there right now but be very careful which school you pick. Best of luck!!
 
Ajax BU said:
As mentioned earlier in another thread, new company policy required me to be at the office 6 days a week for 8 hours a day without pay except for my time with students. I emailed the chief instructor asking for clarification and received a response affirming the new policy. New policy also dictated that if I wanted to utilize my only day off I had to request it a week in advance.

.
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I'd have kicked that guy's ass....
 
Stone Cold said:
File for unemployment while you are doing what you need to do legally. This will increase their liability to state and federal unemployment insurance due to a legitimate case for unemployment.

Also, document, document, document. Anything you have supporting your position will help. Go talk to a lawyer...depending on state laws, you may not have a case (right to work states, etc.) but at least you will have the knowledge for the future of what "they" can get away with.

Lastly, update this post. I know, especially if there is a lawsuit out of it, you may not be able to provide much info, but anything you can provide will help future CFI's, and others in similar situations.

If you are able to provide more information later, I vote this post be a sticky for future reference...good luck no matter what!
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EXACTLY!
And tell us the school name. No slander, just the Name. We can get the word out to future CFIs.

Also call your State Attorney General's Office; they have a labor division...might be able to start an investigation.
 
That argument does not even hold water since you are paid hourly, not on commission. Don't worry about it, do what you have to do legally if you want, but there are to many other FI jobs out there to put up with their . With conditions like that they will not be keeping anyone for very long. Good luck man.
Ajax BU said:
When told that car salesmen work unpaid for commission I told them that I would contact the labor department to get their interpretation.
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In California, you might have just been unlawfully terminated.

Good luck. Employers like that do not deserve their employees.
 
Ajax BU said:
As mentioned earlier in another thread, new company policy required me to be at the office 6 days a week for 8 hours a day without pay except for my time with students. I emailed the chief instructor asking for clarification and received a response affirming the new policy. New policy also dictated that if I wanted to utilize my only day off I had to request it a week in advance.

I had previously been reprimanded before this new policy went into effect for taking an afternoon off to sleep. I had a 7 am flight that day, and if memory serves me correctly I also had a 9am or a 10am flight. Then, I had a break before a 9pm to 2am flight and then a 7am flight. I felt that to satisfy the IMSAFE checklist I needed the nap in the afternoon and even cleared it with the school's owner. Despite my safety concerns and the owner's permission, I received a heavy, verbal reprimand.

Tomorrow I had a student from 7-9 and then free for the rest of the day. I had a personally issue to take care of and blocked my schedule off for part of the early afternoon to tend to it. Because of this and my hesitance to work unpaid I was terminated.

A company email was sent out to my students informing them of the action and I have been getting a lot of kind messages from my now former students. The messages have all been heartwarming as many thanked me for my instruction and told me that they will most certainly miss me and that they wish me the best in the future.

I joined the company realizing it was a new company and excited about the growth potential, unfortunately it didn't go that way.

If anyone has been in a similar situation please let me know, I could use some advice here. I am a relatively young flight instructor and I can't understand their stance on this.
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Sounds like a bunch of assclowns to me, be happy you don't work there anymore & try to collect unemployment in the meantime.

Oh... Name the Flight School too please.
 
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