Tense exchange between ATC and pilot at JFK

[ppragman]

23G35 really isn't that bad of a crosswind. There had to be more going on, conversations with whoever handed him off. I say kudos to the captain, I'm sure he had a good reason to do what he did and everyone on that plane just might be alive because he showed authority.

It isn't too bad in the 207, the 206 or the Cherokee 6, or hell, not even too bad in the 1900C, but I don't know about the 747, nor do I want to question the guy, it was his ass in the seat, not mine.

 

[Polar742]

but I don't know about the 747

30 knots on a dry runway

 

[ppragman]

30 knots on a dry runway

Thanks! You're lightening fast on the keys!

There you go, the demonstrated data is exceeded, and a 747 is a little bit big to be saying, "ehh, well you know, that's just the demonstrated crosswind component, so you know, I'm sure it can do more before you run out of control effectiveness." Plus that's a lot of inertia down low with a spool up time to say, "oh wait, we're having trouble maintaining centerline!" in the flare. Screw that, the guy did the right thing. Might have been dickish about it, but he did the right thing.

 

[mikecweb]

Thanks! You're lightening fast on the keys!

There you go, the demonstrated data is exceeded, and a 747 is a little bit big to be saying, "ehh, well you know, that's just the demonstrated crosswind component, so you know, I'm sure it can do more before you run out of control effectiveness." Plus that's a lot of inertia down low with a spool up time to say, "oh wait, we're having trouble maintaining centerline!" in the flare. Screw that, the guy did the right thing. Might have been dickish about it, but he did the right thing.

Did I miss something? Why are we talking about 747s?

 

[ppragman]

Did I miss something? Why are we talking about 747s?

I dunno, typo then I ran with it.

 

[E_Dawg]

I can remember being in Korea and having a hydraulic malfunction/failure. Returning to base following declaring my IFE with the Korean ATC, and figuring I'd be able to recover quickly, I'm instead sent to holding with an EAC time, as I find out I'm IFE #7 in line........1 with an engine shutdown, 3 with min fuel, one with electrical problems being led in for a landing, one NORDO and inbound and will likely just be hitting the IAF for the HI-TACAN and immediately commencing the penetration track, and then me........the least priority emergency of the 7 of us who are declared emergencies; along with the other recovering fighters who, if given delays, will themselves become emergencies. All while the winds had forced ATC to turn the PAR dish around, and that took time to accomplish and setup. I was also held since when i was asked "fuel and souls onboard", it was determined I had ample fuel to hold in comparison to the other fighters that carried little and burned it too fast.

You and Chuck Norris should seriously have an all out brawl. Probably sell out on HBO.

 

[derg]

We've got manufacturer limitations and operational limitations at Southernjets.

The aircraft will do X, but we're only allowed to do Y. Do X in a non-emergency situation, bend metal or get caught and it's time for zhe carpet dance!

 

[esa17]

No, not always. A lot of emergencies do not effect the safety of the aircraft while in flight. Landing gear emergencies would be a good example.

Nope, always.

When the pilot declares an emergency they can do what ever is required by their judgment to put the plane on the ground safely. All they are required to do is keep the ground station informed.

 

[MikeD]

Nope, always.

When the pilot declares an emergency they can do what ever is required by their judgment to put the plane on the ground safely. All they are required to do is keep the ground station informed.

Not completely. It depends. Reference my example.

The pilot will be held accountable for their actions, IF the actions they take cause a further hazard to other aircraft or persons on the ground, regardless of the emergency. Or worse, cause an accident. It sucks, but it's a reality.

Reference this. The first was a square corner that the pilot put himself into, and couldn't get out of. The second was a square corner that the pilot was put into by factors outside his control, that he couldn't get out of:

Exactly. Sometimes the difference between success and failure is razor thin. The accident that most comes to mind on this idea is the USAF A-7D Corsair II at Indianpolis, IN in 1987. Single engine, engine failure, on top of the WX, attempts a dead-stick ASR approach, breaks out too high over the airport and attempts to circle for a different runway, cant make that and ejects. Jet goes into the airport Ramada Inn, killing 9 people. It was the gamble between ejecting and getting rid of the jet while still away from the city (but unknown exactly what was underneath him due to the WX), or bringing the sick jet over and into the city in an attempt to make the airport.

By contrast, in Oct 1978, another USAF A-7D was on approach to Davis-Monthan AFB when it had an engine malfunction. On approach to RW 12 and over the University of AZ, the pilot couldn't make the base and was over Mansfield Middle School, so he steered it down, lined it up with an empty football field, and ejected at 200AGL. But post ejection, the jet banked right and impacted Highland Ave which was fairly clear, right up until a Chevy Vega with two females inside pulled onto the street from an alley entrance, were hit by the jet coming down the street, and burned to death.

So again, as I've said many times here, the grim reaper of aviation will come and get you when and where he pleases, and he shows neither favoritism nor prejudice on when that time will be and who it will be for.

In my example with the F-117 in Korea, I was definitely an emergency, with the potential for gear problems that I didn't know about yet. What was going on behind the scenes was what I wasn't aware of.....that of me having to literally "take a number and wait for my name to be called", as I wasn't the only emergency in town. An extreme example yes, but a reality of what ATC has to deal with when they receive an emergency aircraft that they have to work. Re-read my description of what ATC has to deal with. Pilots need to at least be aware of this and understand it's potential to be a factor in any situation they may find themselves in:

An interesting tidbit I heard on the ATC freqs that caught my attention years ago was an IFE in progress. In that instance, an aircraft declared an emergency in Class B airspace. The weather was broken CB with rain, enough-so that IFR aircraft were being vectored to instrument final, with no visual approaches being issued. The aircraft with the IFE (rough-running engine on a Cessna 421) couldn't understand why he wasn't getting immediate vectors to final to land, and why he was told to "stand-by" by ATC. He raised hell a few times about it to ATC. But there seemed to be, from my perspective, a few things he failed to understand about ATC and how they work. Now, I fully understand that anytime someone declares an IFE, they expect, and should receive, priority handling to the maximum extent possible. Keep in mind the last part of that sentence: "to the maximum extent possible." When someone has an IFE, their only worry is (rightfully) their aircraft and themselves, but they've got to understand why some things may happen that may not initially go their way. When an IFE gets declared to ATC, the controller's entire scope doesn't come to a grinding halt. He still has those (possibly) 10, 20, or more MTI "blips" to sequence and separate. Once someone declares an IFE, chances are, they've now thrown a monkey wrench into the controllers sequence/separation plan; they're a pain-in-the-ass now for all intents and purposes. He still has his other traffic to work while he works to prioritize the IFE, and may very well have to have the IFE "stand by" while he coordinates with other sectors/tower for the IFE, etc; this workload being possibly multiplied ten-fold if the WX is actual IFR due to sequencing needs and the lack of visual approaches/separation available. Often times, an IFE may just have to recover within the flow that's already in place. It's a crap-sandwich, I know, but you play the cards you're dealt, and they're rarely going to be four-of-a-kind Aces.

I can remember being in Korea and having a hydraulic malfunction/failure. Returning to base following declaring my IFE with the Korean ATC, and figuring I'd be able to recover quickly, I'm instead sent to holding with an EAC time, as I find out I'm IFE #7 in line........1 with an engine shutdown, 3 with min fuel, one with electrical problems being led in for a landing, one NORDO and inbound and will likely just be hitting the IAF for the HI-TACAN and immediately commencing the penetration track, and then me........the least priority emergency of the 7 of us who are declared emergencies; along with the other recovering fighters who, if given delays, will themselves become emergencies. All while the winds had forced ATC to turn the PAR dish around, and that took time to accomplish and setup. I was also held since when i was asked "fuel and souls onboard", it was determined I had ample fuel to hold in comparison to the other fighters that carried little and burned it too fast.

 

[Bumblebee]

Just for clarification... declaring "Minimum Fuel" is not an emergency declaration either, and does not grant you anything special, just no "Un-Due" Delay...

it merely advises ATC that any "undue" delay is likely to result in an emergency...it doesn't even guarantee no undue delay.

 

[dasleben]

It isn't too bad in the 207, the 206 or the Cherokee 6, or hell, not even too bad in the 1900C, but I don't know about the 747, nor do I want to question the guy, it was his ass in the seat, not mine.

Jeez, what kind of 206s and 207s are you flying where a gusting 35 knot crosswind isn't too bad? I can tell you from personal experience that the 402 flies like a Mack truck in crosswinds, even with the giant rudder. 15 knot demonstrated crosswind, and that's about all I'll try. Done worse than 15 knots, but it wasn't fun in the least.

 

[SurferLucas]

Jeez, what kind of 206s and 207s are you flying where a gusting 35 knot crosswind isn't too bad? I can tell you from personal experience that the 402 flies like a Mack truck in crosswinds, even with the giant rudder. 15 knot demonstrated crosswind, and that's about all I'll try. Done worse than 15 knots, but it wasn't fun in the least.

Oh you pansy......just kidding...

If you ran the engines more oversquared, the 402 would handle it just fine...

 

[JoelT]

I have heard that they had 6500# of fuel upon landing. In the 767 7000# is "pucker" gas and if AA is like DAL then the max crosswind is 29 knots. They did not have a lot of options.

 

[WacoFan]

it merely advises ATC that any "undue" delay is likely to result in an emergency...it doesn't even guarantee no undue delay.

Stupid question for you or MJG...and also one for MikeD with his kind of ops, but what kind of special handling do you guys get from ATC? Are you pretty much given priority over everything else that is in the sky (barring a declared emergency)? How important are quick-turns when dumping retardent and does ATC know to accomodate that? Just wondering about these things - and thinking mostly in SoCal or more populated fire areas - I imagine in Idaho or Montana you guys get anything you want all the time.

 

[ppragman]

Jeez, what kind of 206s and 207s are you flying where a gusting 35 knot crosswind isn't too bad? I can tell you from personal experience that the 402 flies like a Mack truck in crosswinds, even with the giant rudder. 15 knot demonstrated crosswind, and that's about all I'll try. Done worse than 15 knots, but it wasn't fun in the least.

The 402 looks like it'd be a bear just in general in wicked weather. How's that thing ride in the bumps?

Worse I had was about 40kts right off the right wing in Akhiok (PAKH). In the 207 you just drive it down the pike in the crab then at the last possible instant jam it into a slip. With 40kts you drift a little while in the flare, so you have to time it right, you also have to bring it in as slow as physically possible so that you quit flying as soon as you touch. I also recommend retracting the flaps in the flare on that one so you can't get blown around.

In the 1900C we had 30-40kt xwinds regularly going into Dutch Harbor, Kodiak, St. Paul, and St. George. (PADU, PADQ, PASN, and PAPB). Usually the captain took the more wicked winds, but once or twice I experienced some of that in the 1900. That thing is awesome in pretty much anything you can throw at it. Drive it down, flare and kick with a little differential power, and voila. It usually isn't smooth like that, but hey, you're safely on the ground.

 

[dasleben]

The 402 looks like it'd be a bear just in general in wicked weather. How's that thing ride in the bumps?

It's very stable to fly, but it fishtails in the bumps. Really not a whole lot of fun for the people sitting in row 5 on a bumpy day.

Crosswinds are annoying in this plane simply because it's heavy on the controls. As I said, the thing's like a Mack truck to land. It makes a great instrument platform but when you need it to be responsive it's pretty sluggish at slow speeds. Another factor is the wide wheelbase for an airplane its size. Touch down one main, and the other wants to slam down in a hurry. In stronger crosswinds, you have to touch one main down, play with the other main to make it smooth, then smoothly put the nose down. Way too much drama!

After 1300 landings in the thing, I still can't make it smooth every time. Can't tell you how many times I've put the upwind wheel down smoothly, only to get a slam SLAM as the downwind wheel and nose fall to the ground. I must be a rank amateur!

Worse I had was about 40kts right off the right wing in Akhiok (PAKH). In the 207 you just drive it down the pike in the crab then at the last possible instant jam it into a slip. With 40kts you drift a little while in the flare, so you have to time it right, you also have to bring it in as slow as physically possible so that you quit flying as soon as you touch. I also recommend retracting the flaps in the flare on that one so you can't get blown around.

Retracting flaps in the flare...no thanks! Way too much airmanship required for me.

 

[boondr]

Jeez, what kind of 206s and 207s are you flying where a gusting 35 knot crosswind isn't too bad? I can tell you from personal experience that the 402 flies like a Mack truck in crosswinds, even with the giant rudder. 15 knot demonstrated crosswind, and that's about all I'll try. Done worse than 15 knots, but it wasn't fun in the least.

I know ya chicken! j/k

R28 was definitely the right choice yesterday. At some points it was sustained 35 kts gusting 47

 

[dasleben]

I know ya chicken! j/k

R28 was definitely the right choice yesterday. At some points it was sustained 35 kts gusting 47

Haha, no kidding! I departed 33R after that landing on 28, and that was a mistake. They were calling 290@23, but I caught some pretty wicked gusts on the takeoff roll.

Oh, funny thing about yesterday. When I missed your radio call I was talking shop with a LNS tower controller sitting in the right seat. Seems like I'm running into controllers left and right.

 

[ChasenSFO]

You know, I love controllers they have saved my butt more than once. But for several months I have had runway problems at LVK with ATC. Today happened twice on the same flight and reminded me of this thread.

While I get that me giving dual in a 172 isnt as important as a Lear on the ILS, that hasnt always been the reason they have switched runways on me. I will be on 25R, an RV-4 will be 2 miles behind me, and I am on a 4 mile strait in. They want to switch me and a brand new student doing landings onto 25L which is the narrow short runway. I say unable, they ask why, I say student training, so they say ok Cessna 324SP fly runway heading, climb to 2,000 make a right 270 over the field cross overhead, make left traffic for 25R behind the experimental... Really!!!!????? WTF!!!!!!! All that guff because making my student land on the small runway is not only unsafe but would probably make him have a heart attack at this stage of the game. It makes me real mad how the controllers want to play god in the tower and think they have the final authority. If I have to declare an emergency to make my point that they are there to aid us than I would, we are the final authority and thats written in stone.

Interesting. I've flown into LVK probably 15-20 times with my CFI, and I have NEVER landed on 25R. My first time ever doing landings with my CFI was on 25L and LVK, and I also made my first landing with the instructor off the controls that day. I didn't think it was dangerous at all. Hell, I did my second solo on 25L at LVK on a windy day with about 15 hours TT and made it back in one peice. I'm just curious as to why you feel 25L is dangerous for low time students. There are much shorter and narrower runways in the bay area where students land day in and day out. Did your school have an incident with a student? I screwed up many landings on 25L when I first started, but that's what go-arounds are for.

 

[Callador]

The 402 looks like it'd be a bear just in general in wicked weather. How's that thing ride in the bumps?

Worse I had was about 40kts right off the right wing in Akhiok (PAKH). In the 207 you just drive it down the pike in the crab then at the last possible instant jam it into a slip. With 40kts you drift a little while in the flare, so you have to time it right, you also have to bring it in as slow as physically possible so that you quit flying as soon as you touch. I also recommend retracting the flaps in the flare on that one so you can't get blown around.

In the 1900C we had 30-40kt xwinds regularly going into Dutch Harbor, Kodiak, St. Paul, and St. George. (PADU, PADQ, PASN, and PAPB). Usually the captain took the more wicked winds, but once or twice I experienced some of that in the 1900. That thing is awesome in pretty much anything you can throw at it. Drive it down, flare and kick with a little differential power, and voila. It usually isn't smooth like that, but hey, you're safely on the ground.

Yeah, differential power with twins really helps if/when you start to run out of rudder. I think with smaller planes in general it is easier to "feel" out the landing, so you can do some massive crosswinds. I imagine in a 747, it would be much harder and probably a better idea to stay closer to the company guidelines!