Tense exchange between ATC and pilot at JFK

[ian]

Forgive the ignorance guys, for I know not much about flying airliners or how ATC REALLY works. But from the video he was cleared to land 22L, winds 320/23G35. Thats 100 degrees of crosswind, which would actually give him a slight tailwind... Why weren't they using the other end of the runway, which would be 04, and would have gave them an 80 degree crosswind INTO the wind instead of a tailwind? Better yet, with that kind of wind, why weren't they using 31R?

could have been a wind shift with no time to switch runways :dunno:

 

[fholbert]

back in my t-1 days,

T-1?

 

[future pilot]

Should the controller have asked the reason for declaring emergency maby?

 

[ian]

T-1?

military version of the beechjet 400

 

[Vref]

There's a lot going on in any aircraft when you are at low altitude, changing runway, and confronted with problems on the flight deck. Eventually we will find out what really happened. In my previous post I said the Capt. did a good job of increasing HIS safety margin by doing what he did for what ever reason he did it for. People are safe and the A/C is in one piece. Great result!

Whether he went about it the right way, we can all speculate. I will say it is not that much fun when you are doing these types of maneuvers and dealing with the possibility of low fuel at a very busy airport. High stress/workload situations affect people in many different ways. If his communication didn't come across as good as it could have been, maybe his aviating and navigating were taking priority as they should be.

Just a thought

 

[mshunter]

Are you sure?

Yeah, and only because (and you should know this beeing on both sides of the coin), the pilot is flying the airplane, and you can't do it for them. In an emergency, you can tell me to do what ever you want, but I am going to do what I feel is necessary to save my butt. If you tell the me that the guy in front of me is priority, and we have both declared an emergency, sorry about your luck, and his, but I am priority in my mind, EVERYTHING else is secondary. My main concern is to save my butt, and I will try to accomidate the other guy on my way down.

Fight or flight comes into play. My personality will fight, as will most others.

 

[ian]

There's a lot going on in any aircraft when you are at low altitude, changing runway, and confronted with problems on the flight deck. Eventually we will find out what really happened. In my previous post I said the Capt. did a good job of increasing HIS safety margin by doing what he did for what ever reason he did it for. People are safe and the A/C is in one piece. Great result!

Whether he went about it the right way, we can all speculate. I will say it is not that much fun when you are doing these types of maneuvers and dealing with the possibility of low fuel at a very busy airport. High stress/workload situations affect people in many different ways. If his communication didn't come across as good as it could have been, maybe his aviating and navigating were taking priority as they should be.

Just a thought

at least he said exactly what he was doing so the controller could clear his way instead of just doing it

 

[fholbert]

could have been a wind shift with no time to switch runways :dunno:

In areas with multiple airports often the entire area needs to change runways at the same time so their arrival routes, final approaches, missed approaches and departures don't conflict. A poor solution for one airport may be the best solution for others.

Who makes that call?

 

[SoCalAprch]

Are you sure?

It's after dark, a PARO at 9000 and and an Aztec at 7000, both enroute v14. Same time same place both declair an emergency due to ice. Real panic in their voices. We had freezing temps to the ground. Who do you make #1? I choose the guy at 9000, everyone lived.

Another time a C-141 declared and emergency 45 minutes ago with center because he had to shut down 1 of 4 engines. He's on a RADAR base when a one engine fighter without warning flames out. It was my job to determine the nature or severity of the emergency. Call me stupid but I choose to make the Lead Sled #1 and vector the C-141 across final. All lived, the C-141 got to fly another day. The Thud pilot got to ride the last couple of miles in a helicopter. I tried!

Well there was only one emergency in this scenario and like many have said its rude to speculate as none of us know what was happening. And the second scenario you speak of with the C141 I've heard about a hundred times. It seems pretty crazy that you happened to be the guy controlling those flights.

It is kinda frustrating though that after a long flight you are faced with the decision of exceeding an aircraft limitation or diverting all because JFK didn't want to land 31R. Its easy to sit up there in the tower clearing aircraft to land in a gusty 35 knot crosswind but flying it and realizing you are putting your passengers in an unnecessary situation all because it would cause headaches for ATC and delays on the ground is stupid. When someone bends metal its almost never ATCs fault and we have all heard "the pilot should have exercised his PIC authority" in situations like this. Now one does and he's some kind of pariah. After looking back on it I would have handled it a bit differently and possibly stated my concerns a bit more clearly but aside from the guy being rude I don't believe he did anything wrong. If Im ever in this type of situation I will try to state my concerns more clearly to the controller but when you're in a pinch the last thing you want is someone trying to manage your aircraft from the tower.

And as for everyone stating he should goto an alternate, how do you know they had one filed? Just because the winds were gusting doesn't mean they have an alternate filed and the fuel and numbers to go somewhere else. After all the news with how the passengers hate the airlines the FAA thinks its a good idea to start diverting people because ATC didn't want to deal with landing a favorable runway?

 

[mooneyguy]

Are you sure?

YES, IM sure! It's the pilots decision. what happens, happens once on the ground after it's over. In the air it's up to the pilot to decide what HE needs to do. you are not the authority over the pilot once he has declared! We have no idea what the nature of the emergency was. other then winds, its speculation, and I could care less. Other then TELL you what he intends on doing, he doesn't have to say a damn thing! Look at the hudson event, they declared and only answered ATC when they felt it necessary! they completely ignored atc when they had no need to talk to them.

When your PIC you have to make a decision based on your circumstances, not on what some guy sitting on the ground wants. Take it to a controllers forum if you want, but here don't be telling Pilots (many of whom are students) that in an emergency YOU are in control! I'll talk with the feds on the ground. once me and my passengers are safe

 

[fholbert]

It seems pretty crazy that you happened to be the guy controlling those flights.

You heard about something that happened in 1978? They are still talking about that?

 

[minitour]

*Story time*

Back when I was flying freight, I went around 3 times at one airport, diverted to my alternate, had to go around there, then had to divert 80 miles to find a suitable airport (x-wind was too much for my pathetic lack of skills) to land at.

You better believe, I declared minimum fuel in the climb-out after the 4th go around......and almost declared an emergency when they tried to make me number 2 for the airport.

x-wind can be a damned good reason for a go around.

:clap: For the captain for doing what he needed to do to ensure the flight was completed safely.

Could he have handled it differently? I dunno. Maybe. Probably. Possibly. Maybe not. Who knows? I wasn't there. In the end, no metal bent, no one died and the world just keeps on a-turnin. I doubt the captain will get more than a sim session and a stack of paperwork to fill out.

-mini

 

[mikecweb]

The one controller's kid woulda asked him why he was declaring an emergency and gotten to the bottom of this.

 

[subpilot]

Once he declares the emergency he can do whatever the hell he wants to.

Only to the extent required to meet the requirements of the emergency.

 

[msmspilot]

I think that's the thing in question here. Speculations on low fuel are just that -- speculations. No fuel advisory was made.

While every pilot should get the benefit of the doubt when declaring an emergency, something's not right here. If there was a fuel issue, why wasn't it mentioned? For that matter, given the extent of conversation that did take place, why wasn't the nature of the emergency mentioned at all? The pilot had time to berate the controller, but not inform him of what to expect so he could prepare an appropriate response?

Lines like "If you don't get us to runway 31R we're going to declare an emergency" and "I've told you three times already" don't sound right to me. There's something here that's beyond what's been reported so far, either on the controller's part, the pilot's part, or both.

I agree. I think a lot of questions could be answered if we could hear the pilot talking with approach along with the tower.

My idea (total speculation) is that the pilot had already had this conversation (minus the emergency part) with approach. He was tired (long flight), frustrated (couldn't get it through to approach that he couldn't do the crosswind), and finally lost a little control. But that's just speculation.

 

[AM011309]

I think the "We're landing, we're on the visual- get everybody out of our way" along with the other stuff was a bit much.

The guy said IF we don't get 31R THEN we'll have to declare... the controller never told him no, he just had him fly a heading, (to maintain/protect for separation until he could vector him to 31R I'll presume), but then the pilot got rude and declared, declared, declared. The controller even said, "Just verifying because you said if/then."

The piece that's missing is what, if any, discussion may have taken place earlier regarding an emergency, but it just sounded like the problem was he couldn't land 22...ok that's understandable..but controllers need information to help the pilots too. I agree, something doesn't add up and unless the plane was falling out of the sky that pilot should have handled it a lot better.

 

[Nick]

It seems like there must be a little more to this than that recording.

As others have said, they may have already mentioned something to approach and for some reason that never got passed along to tower. Who knows.

 

[Polar742]

I just read the article, and I refuse to sign up to liveatc to listen to this as I hear enough chatter at work, and have a few comments on this thread.

I'm not saying there was a fuel issue or not, as I wasn't there and there certainly isn't enough information to surmise if it was fuel related or not.

I do know that with the nice min fuel every airline is dispatched with makes for a normal day turn into a fuel emergency in a rapid manner. I got caught once by that. I ended up diverting into an airport on a VFR day, but the arrival corridor was shut down. No traffic was allowed to divert to other arrival gates or any thing of the like. Scared the crap out of me. A totally normal flight, and then I'm being held down low in a jet sucking fuel like a NASCAR fan does Busch on Sunday. To even infer there was a violation of FARs for a fuel issue is obtuse, at best. Even with the min fuel, it's still safe. That doesn't mean it is risk free out there.

For those of you that have never flown into the Eastern Seaboard, well, you're lucky. Unless you're paid by the hour. Things work differently. I'll bet there was a "legal" alternate like LGA or EWR if the weather was just below VFR mins. Add to that rush hour at all the airports, and there really isn't much room or time to negotiate. It's just a fact.

However, there are examples of them trying to put a widebody on that runway when the plane would have been better served on the wrong one. I personally know and have flown with the individual that was CA on the flight pics I'm attaching. He's a very good and experienced CA.

Pic 1

Pic 2

Pic 3

Don't call the guy an idiot based on a complete lack of facts. He didn't hurt anyone. The only issue is it seems that he petted the cat the wrong way. And there are 3 pages of crap based on that alone.

Now, if the facts come back and he was just being a jerk. Well, that's never a good thing.

 

[Nick]

The JFK 'Tude

Another thing I just thought of as I was listening to it again.

I guarantee if this was at nearby EWR, which undoubtedly has equally challenging configurations for controllers, that the controller would not have snapped back with that pissed off tone. The questioning would have been reserved for later and it wouldn't have taken so long to get a point across.

Listening to this again reminded me of the difference in controllers between JFK and EWR which I went in and out of today. They are just so much friendlier and more professional at EWR -- I do not know why the ones at JFK have to behave in such an embarrassing way when they represent our transportation system for a variety of foreign carriers that fly to no other US airport besides Kennedy.

 

[Nick]

Hey Polar,

Click the youtube video a few replies down from the original thread starting post for the ATC clip.