Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On...

Wm226

Wm226

Well-Known Member
Sorry about abbreviating the title of this thread (limited to a certain amount of characters) -- and I may be coming off as quite anal about this subject; but after contacting every helicopter flight school in Southern California, I was told that 40 hours of total time in the helicopter is the legal requirement... regardless of whether one has a certificate in a differing category of aircraft (one instructor told me 30 hours). From reading 61.109(c), one can conclude that the 40 and 20 hours of respective [total] flight time and dual instruction is not specifically required to be in the helicopter -- and can in fact be in an aircraft of different category. 61.109(c) only requires that "10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in 61.107(b)(3) of this part..." must be completed in the helicopter (61.107(b)(3) is in reference to the area of operations in the helicopter). This was my original interpretation of the regulation. Granted, there is also an SFAR for the R-22/R-44 that requires 10 hours of dual instruction in the R-22/R-44 within the preceding 12 calendar months from the required endorsement (only one instructor mentioned this; but instead of 10 hours, he said that the SFAR specifies 20 hours of dual instruction).

In summation, 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter is all that is required in the helicopter to be [legally] eligible for a private add-on. Obviously, this fact is purely legality -- as it will likely take an individual longer to learn the intricacies of learning to fly the helicopter at FAA Practical Test Standards; but the point of my rant is that CFIs should ensure that perspective students are given accurate information. Instead, I was unanimously given inaccurate information by CFIs -- and two insisted that I look up the regulations myself (which I did prior; but I didn't argue with my interpretation).

Nonetheless, after calling every flight school in Southern California, I called three different FAA FSDO offices and three different Inspectors agreed with my interpretation that "10 hours of solo flight training" is all that is LEGALLY required for a Private add-on in the helicopter (of which must include the requirements under 61.109(c)(1)(2)(3)(4)).

The point of this rant is that flight instructors should ensure in providing accurate information; your student deserves it!

Now it is just a matter of finding a helicopter flight school/CFI I can trust after this frustrating experience (admittedly, I used this as a test in finding a good instructor I can trust).
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

(Somewhat off topic) I'm surprised more people aren't killed flight training in R-22s.
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

Yup,

but the R-22 SFAR requires 20 hours of dual in order to solo.
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

NickH said:
Yup,

but the R-22 SFAR requires 20 hours of dual in order to solo.
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Thanks for pointing that out; "(3) A person who does not hold a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must have had at least 20 hours of dual instruction in a Robinson R-22 helicopter prior to operating it in solo flight."

I was looking (2)(b)(1)(ii) -- which states the following: "has had at least 10 hours dual instruction in the Robinson R-22 and has received an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph (b)(5) of this section that the individual has been given the training required by this paragraph and if proficient to act as pilot in command of an R-22. Beginning 12 calendar months after the date of the endorsement, the individual may not act as pilot in command unless the individual has completed a flight review in an R-22 within the preceding 12 calendar months and obtained an endorsement for that flight review."

Credit to that one instructor; though he still said that I would require a minimum of 40 hours in the helicopter.
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

Yes, because the ability to regurgitate regs at a moment's notice over a random phone call is a clear demonstration a CFI's command of the aircraft and teaching effectiveness.:sarcasm:
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

TwoTwoLeft said:
Yes, because the ability to regurgitate regs at a moment's notice over a random phone call is a clear demonstration a CFI's command of the aircraft and teaching effectiveness.:sarcasm:
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Not implying that at all. I'm a flight instructor as well; when I'm not certain to something (especially to the interpretation of regulations), I take the time to look it up. If I'm not sure, I ask around and sometimes resort to calling FSDO. It's a trait that I personally look for when I look for a flight instructor... going above and beyond what is required to ensure the accuracy of information (ex. not giving incorrect information for the sake of looking smart). The fact that the instructors that I called didn't take the time to open up the FAR/AIM -- which takes five minutes at most -- and read the regulations themselves leads me to believe that they will do the same if I use their services.
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

I did some flying out of Blue Hills Helicopter in MA - they made it clear that it was a 10 hour add on, but said the lowest they have seen is just over 25 and people should plan for 30-40.

Pity as I could afford 10.

Instead I will be flying smaller heli's with Tareq.

[yt]PP0fnyIrNEk[/yt]
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

Wm226 said:
Not implying that at all. I'm a flight instructor as well; when I'm not certain to something (especially to the interpretation of regulations), I take the time to look it up. If I'm not sure, I ask around and sometimes resort to calling FSDO. It's a trait that I personally look for when I look for a flight instructor... going above and beyond what is required to ensure the accuracy of information (ex. not giving incorrect information for the sake of looking smart). The fact that the instructors that I called didn't take the time to open up the FAR/AIM -- which takes five minutes at most -- and read the regulations themselves leads me to believe that they will do the same if I use their services.
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Yeah, there's nothing wrong with saying "I don't know". There's no way faster way to get on my bad side than blowing smoke up my ass. I see what you mean. If they do that from the start then they're bound to do it elsewhere in the training. I've always worked around a good group so its hard to imagine CFIs being like that. We also get a lot of phone calls from people posing as potential business trying to get free advice/instruction. I always found I got the best results from actually showing up.

I always thought adding on a Helicopter would be fun. You set on the R22 or considering the 300? You may have already called, but there's Orbic out in CMA. I've heard some good things about them.
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

I would prefer to fly in the 300; but most of the schools around here seem to operate the R-22/R-44. And yes, I called Orbic a few days ago and they told me (like most others) that 40 hours is the requirement.
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

I_Money said:
I did some flying out of Blue Hills Helicopter in MA - they made it clear that it was a 10 hour add on, but said the lowest they have seen is just over 25 and people should plan for 30-40.

Pity as I could afford 10.

Instead I will be flying smaller heli's with Tareq.
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Too bad that place is in MA; though it's nice that they fly the 300.

BTW, it would suck to get hit in the face with those RCs, lol.
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

What's this?
61.109(c) "...20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours solo in the areas listed in61.107(b)(3).
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

nosehair said:
What's this?
61.109(c) "...20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours solo in the areas listed in61.107(b)(3).
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20 hours of flight training is not specified as being required to have been in a helicopter (for the case of an add-on to an existing airplane certificate, it could have been conducted in an airplane toward initial certification); only the 10 hours is required to have been in a helicopter -- as it states... "10 hours solo in the areas listed in 61.107(b)(3)." 61.107(b)(3) is the area of operations for helicopters.
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

As a CFI that used to work outside of Nashville I got a lot of Commercial cert. heli pilots coming down from Ft Cambell to get there private and commercial Airplane addons. I usually did two or three, 1 hour long dual flights, made sure they new how to fly, land, and then plan a cross country and sent them on their way for 10 hours of fun flying XCs and praticing manuevers. Did a couple more dual flights at the end to make sure they were ready and signed them off. Usually took less than 15 hours.

I don't know if a heli transition is different but I would assume the same thing is required
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

61.107(b)(3) has some items that are specific to helicopters, so obviously, you need X amount of hours over 10 to be able to complete the training.

For a rotorcraft category rating with a helicopter class rating: (i) Preflight preparation;
(ii) Preflight procedures;
(iii) Airport and heliport operations;
(iv) Hovering maneuvers;
(v) Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds;
(vi) Performance maneuvers;
(vii) Navigation;
(viii) Emergency operations;
(ix) Night operations, except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part; and
(x) Postflight procedures.
(
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61.63(b)(2)

For an additional aircraft rating on a pilot certificate, other than for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must meet the requirements of this section appropriate to the additional aircraft rating sought.
(b) Additional aircraft category rating. A person who applies to add a category rating to a pilot certificate:
(1) Must complete the training and have the applicable aeronautical experience.
(2) Must have a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor attesting that the person was found competent in the appropriate aeronautical knowledge areas and proficient in the appropriate areas of operation.
(3) Must pass the practical test.
(4) Need not take an additional knowledge test if the person holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating at that pilot certificate leve[/B][/U]
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Obviously, that isn't going to happen unless you have specific training in the aircraft. Also, since you have to meet the aeronautical experience requirements of 61.109(c), you need at least this:

1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;

(2) Except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a helicopter that includes--

(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

(3) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a helicopter in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and
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So even if you combine all of them together, that is 3 hours right there, so your assumption that 10 hours solo is the minimum is wrong.


Also, be aware the FSDO's opinion has no bearing in FAA legal proceedings. It is pretty worthless.
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

mojo6911 said:
61.107(b)(3) has some items that are specific to helicopters, so obviously, you need X amount of hours over 10 to be able to complete the training.

So even if you combine all of them together, that is 3 hours right there, so your assumption that 10 hours solo is the minimum is wrong.
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You reiterated what I originally stated. Note that I stated that "I called three different FAA FSDO offices and three different Inspectors agreed with my interpretation that '10 hours of solo flight training' is all that is LEGALLY required for a Private add-on in the helicopter (of which must include the requirements under 61.109(c)(1)(2)(3)(4))". Your citation of 61.107(b)(3) specifies no hourly requirements that add to the 10 hours of solo that is LEGALLY required for a Private Add-On in the helicopter (though it does specify the areas of operation that must be covered by ground and flight instruction "from an authorized flight instructor"). And yes, I did mention that as part of the helicopter add-on, one would need the requirements of 61.109(c)(3) [read again] -- which outlines that "3 hours of flight training in preparation for the practical test in a helicopter" must be completed "60 days preceding the date of the date of the test."

mojo6911 said:
Also, be aware the FSDO's opinion has no bearing in FAA legal proceedings. It is pretty worthless.
Click to expand...

Is this your personal opinion? Or have you read this from somewhere? Do you have regulatory information that states that "FSDO's opinion has no bearing in FAA legal proceedings?" Because unless you have specific government publication that pertains to your claim, I go by 1. what the regulations say; and 2. what the local FSDO says (in that precedent).

FYI, I'm not implying that flight instructors should prematurely endorse their students for the practical test. I'm simply saying that CFIs should be concise with the information that they disseminate.
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

Wm226 said:
Note that I stated that "I called three different FAA FSDO offices and three different Inspectors agreed with my interpretation
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I can appreciate your standing, and understanding, on this matter. It would certainly seem that an FAA Inspector would have a concrete understanding of Part 61. But, some of them don't. It is a fact you will discover as you become more familiar with our government system of regulation.

The part of the regulation about basic requirements of private pilot applicants is divided into categories, as you can see.

61.109(c) these are requirements for a helicopter: "...that includes 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation in 61.107(b)(3).

Note the bold 'and'.

The 20 hours from an authorized instructor is a helicopter instructor, and the areas of operation are helicopter operations listed in (b)(3), which are the list of TASKs on the PTS.

This is the same format for all of the ratings. ASEL requires 20 dual in an ASEL from an ASEL CFI on ASEL maneuvers. Every category has that requirement. "...20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor..." This is under the category for which the requirement is listed, referencing the maneuvers required for that category, not for some generic training.

The above is fact, the following is my opinion.

As a long-time experienced instructor in both ASEL and helicopters, myself, I will tell you that nothing in 61.107(b)(1)(ASEL maneuvers) that can be effectively substituted for 61.107(b)(3)(helicopter maneuvers).

Even radio tuning in a helicopter is more difficult and actually requires more training for an airplane pilot. The ASEL pilot has already established a habit of looking at the radio tuner knob longer than a helicopter pilot can afford to look away or not keep both hands on the flight controls. He has to relearn a new 'procedure' for simply changing radio frequencies.

He will need all of the 20 hours to become safe in a helicopter.
 
Re: Ten Hours Is All That Is Req. For a Heli Private Add-On.

Wm226 said:
I did mention that as part of the helicopter add-on, one would need the requirements of 61.109(c)(3) [read again] -- which outlines that "3 hours of flight training in preparation for the practical test in a helicopter" must be completed "60 days preceding the date of the date of the test."
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If that is the case, obviously, you will need more than 10 hours of solo. I agree that 40 hours is not a legal requirement, but I disagree that you only need 10 hours of solo to be eligible for the checkride. "Flight training" must be given by an authorized instructor.

Wm226 said:
Is this your personal opinion? Or have you read this from somewhere? Do you have regulatory information that states that "FSDO's opinion has no bearing in FAA legal proceedings?" Because unless you have specific government publication that pertains to your claim, I go by 1. what the regulations say; and 2. what the local FSDO says (in that precedent).
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The FAA has a legal department who are the only ones authorized to interpret the regulations. The only legal interpretations can be found here:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/

The FSDO inspectors aren't authorized to interpret regs officially.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/

The Regulations Division provides legal counsel regarding the drafting, form and legality of regulations, orders, exemptions, airspace actions, obstruction evaluation determinations, and space transportation licenses. In addition, it interprets the FAA's aviation and space regulations; develops and recommends agency policy and standards relating to legal aspects of the agency regulatory program; acts as liaison with the Office of the Secretary of Transportation on the legal aspects of the agency's regulatory program; and provides legal counsel for the Slot Management System.
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