Techniques of the Professional Airline Pilot

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

How many little shades of gray do you want to break the pilot profession into?!

I think the demarcation is pretty simple. Flight instructors are different than corporate pilots who are different than air line pilots. These are distinct segments of the industry. Trying to equate all of our disparate jobs is ridiculous.

 

[Hacker15e]

I think the demarcation is pretty simple. Flight instructors are different than corporate pilots who are different than air line pilots. These are distinct segments of the industry. Trying to equate all of our disparate jobs is ridiculous.

I was more speaking to the "you are not a member of my profession" statement.

That's like me walking up to a C-17 pilot and telling him he's not a member of MY profession. That's ludicrous, and moreover it continues to isolate certain groups through that continual sub-division. I don't see what there possibly is to gain by that.

Doesn't make sense to me as an outsider. It makes you appear to have a distorted and myopic view of the pilot profession as a whole.

Seems to me that given your objectives, especially as the pro-union flagwaver that you are online, you'd be seeking to unite as many pilot groups as you could.

 

[derg]

I like eggs.

 

[Hacker15e]

I like eggs.

...and bacon?

 

[WalterSobchak]

I was more speaking to the "you are not a member of my profession" statement.

That's like me walking up to a C-17 pilot and telling him he's not a member of MY profession. That's ludicrous, and moreover it continues to isolate certain groups through that continual sub-division. I don't see what there possibly is to gain by that.

Doesn't make sense to me as an outsider. It makes you appear to have a distorted and myopic view of the pilot profession as a whole.

Seems to me that given your objectives, especially as the pro-union flagwaver that you are online, you'd be seeking to unite as many pilot groups as you could.

You can't equate things that are so different. A guy who has chosen coporate aviation may very well choose to pick up garbage, throw bags, push wheel chairs etc. He usually gets a salary and is compensated for doing that. We are paid when the fires are burning. Saying the pilot profession as a whole is like comparing a cab driver to a nascar driver to a semi driver. To each his own, but when you cross the line like in PCL 128's example and force every one to do things that aren't part of the job that makes it frustrating. Most airlines have hired to people to do the individual tasks. Cogs in the machine.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I was more speaking to the "you are not a member of my profession" statement.

Seems to me that given your objectives, especially as the pro-union flagwaver that you are online, you'd be seeking to unite as many pilot groups as you could.

I would never dare tell a NetJets pilot how he should uphold his profession. I don't understand his profession, I've never been a part of his profession, and I have no desire to be a part of his profession. It is his realm, and he knows it best. Likewise, it is absurd for a NetJets pilot, or a corporate pilot, or any other non-airline-pilot to tell a group of air line pilots how they should uphold their profession. If cleaning the cabin and tossing bags is part of being a corporate/fractional pilot, then that's fine. That's his profession, and I don't profess to know anything about it. I'm an air line pilot, and I know my profession. Those things have no place in my profession.

There was a time when Pan Am refused to allow their pilots to even lift their bags from the curb to the hotel van or from the van to their hotel rooms. Their hotel contracts specifically stated that the hotel was responsible for handling pilot luggage. The airline considered it to be "beneath" their pilots to have to lug their bags to their rooms. We've gone from that lofty ideal to Chicaga tossing bags and serving drinks. It's pathetic. Tell a surgeon that he should "go above and beyond" and help the janitor take out the trash and he'll laugh in your face. But for some reason, a certain group of pilots feel that it's part of their job to do this kind of work. It's demeaning to our professional stature, and it needs to stop.

 

[Stone Cold]

Former GIA Be1900 co pilot. Is that the outfit where you pay the company for a job flying in the right seat?

Man, that was the ignored 800 Lb gorilla in the room, wasn't it? The answer I believe is yes, as he has talked about it before...

You can't equate things that are so different. A guy who has chosen coporate aviation may very well choose to pick up garbage, throw bags, push wheel chairs etc. He usually gets a salary and is compensated for doing that. We are paid when the fires are burning. Saying the pilot profession as a whole is like comparing a cab driver to a nascar driver to a semi driver. To each his own, but when you cross the line like in PCL 128's example and force every one to do things that aren't part of the job that makes it frustrating. Most airlines have hired to people to do the individual tasks. Cogs in the machine.

You mean like pay for training schemes and their current day ugly duckling of RJ courses? Sorry, PCL, I had to go there...for all the chearleading you do, and the disparaging remarks you've made, you yourself have contributed to the degradation of the career more than one captain helping to get the job done ever will...

Just an outsider looking in, since a jet pilot in the charter, hopefully soon to be corporate world, doesn't equate to an "air line pilot". By the way, I avoided the pft/pfj stuff in the past when "everybody was doing it, and it was the only way into the industry". How about you, PCL?

Back to your scheduled bashfest on JC...anic:

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

as he has talked about it before...

Which is exactly why I ignored his question. The topic has been beat to death. Everyone here knows my history with the 'Stream. It was a big mistake when I didn't know any better, and I've moved on and work to improve the profession.

 

[derg]

Just a general statement.

For the love of frozen concentrated orange juice, what the hell is this thread even about now?!

 

[Stone Cold]

Just a general statement.

For the love of frozen concentrated orange juice, what the hell is this thread even about now?!

Duh, you're in the "inner circle" and didn't get the memo???anic:

Back to your scheduled bashfest on JC...

Oh yeah, FlyChicaga, good thread, and sorry people have to ruin every thread around here lately. There were some good tips in there...

 

[Stone Cold]

Which is exactly why I ignored his question. The topic has been beat to death. Everyone here knows my history with the 'Stream. It was a big mistake when I didn't know any better, and I've moved on and work to improve the profession.

That's great that you're trying to improve it now...

My only point was please for the love of all that's holy, stop the preaching about how it's supposed to be in your mind. He's not crossing lines, didn't pay for training or a job, looks professional, from what I understand, doesn't act like an idiot, and is helping to improve the relations between work groups. I don't think he's the one you need to be preaching to about how bad he's making the industry.

As has been pointed out numerous times to some of us who would like the old times back (even though I've never experienced them personally), times are changing. Where's Pan Am now? Where are the mainlines now? How many RJ's are out there, and what are the mins? How many will be here next month? Times are changing...time to get with it and keep your company afloat, if you want. Or burn it down. Doesn't matter to me. Just make sure you don't come to the charter, fractional, or corporate world...we work (yes, some more than others), heaven forbid.

 

[WalterSobchak]

You mean like pay for training schemes and their current day ugly duckling of RJ courses? Sorry, PCL, I had to go there...for all the chearleading you do, and the disparaging remarks you've made, you yourself have contributed to the degradation of the career more than one captain helping to get the job done ever will...

Just an outsider looking in, since a jet pilot in the charter, hopefully soon to be corporate world, doesn't equate to an "air line pilot". By the way, I avoided the pft/pfj stuff in the past when "everybody was doing it, and it was the only way into the industry". How about you, PCL?

Back to your scheduled bashfest on JC...anic:

Why would you respond with that under my post? I have never had an "rj" course. I didn't even go to college for aviation. I didn't "buy time". I Flight instructed, did fire patrol, Aerial Photography, Ferried Airplanes, Flew Freight for 4+ years then came to the airlines.

I don't think there is a bash fest going on here. There isn't any name calling(except possibly the chris ford, FlyChicaga thing what ever is going on there???). I think we are sharing our opinions of what a professional pilot is. The title of the thread "Techniques of the Professional Airline Pilot" implies that those things that the writer posted are what makes an Airline pilot. Some of us disagree with SOME of the post not all of it. As long as its done in a relatively civil manner why can't we seperate the different types of flying and debate them. After all the title of the thread is Techniques of the Professional Airline Pilot.

Also, how can you attack PCL for how he got his start? I think he has went beyond proving himself with what he has achieved and what he has done for others in the form of ALPA. Maybe you should be an insider looking out before you rip on some one. Walk a mile. I too would like to see some respect brought back to being an airline pilot and IMO it doesn't start with doing every one elses job.

 

[Stone Cold]

Sorry Walt, I wasn't implying that you did that...I was just using your reference of PCL to accentuate my point.

I think telling somebody he's part of the problem with aviation today is crossing the line, maybe you look at it differently, but I don't:

If your attitude continues, then you are part of the problem.

Having a positive attitude is not the problem with aviation. Helping coworkers can only help relations with other work groups. From my understanding, most work groups do not look very highly on the primadona pilot types (my mom's a retired FA for American). Until you guys/gals find ways to get some proper management in place, it's going to be an uphill battle. Management has been working for years to pit workgroups against each other, and now has managed to pit pilots vs. each other very successfully. They have taken the majors through the ringer and back again, all in either bankruptcy or just outright stealing, basically.

I'm not sure how, but if there is ever any airline management with ethics and morals (I haven't seen any examples of this, anyways), then you might have a chance. To try to sink your company in spite of management just pits everybody against each other even more, and doesn't help anybody.

I wish ya'll the best of luck in the fight. I will stay on the outside looking in, thanks. I don't care to get into the mess that is the airline industry if I can help it. So far so good!!!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I think telling somebody he's part of the problem with aviation today is crossing the line

I call 'em like I see 'em. His attitude of doing everyone else's job is very destructive. That makes him part of the problem. He's certainly not as big a part as a Skybus pilot, VA pilot, etc..., but he's certainly not contributing to the solution. His actions are counter-productive.

To try to sink your company in spite of management just pits everybody against each other even more, and doesn't help anybody.

Nobody is trying to "sink" any company. Why do you have the idea that refusing to do everyone else's job is "sinking" the company? If the company can't survive without Captains tossing bags and serving drinks, then you're not the one sinking the company, management is. It should never be expected that pilots will do these tasks. When pilots like Matt continue to do them, it gives management the impression that it is acceptable. It most certainly is not. You want to know what this crap leads to? JetBlue pilots had the same attitude that Matt does. They helped out with picking up trash and tidying the cabin to "help out" the FAs and cabin cleaners. Low and behold, after a few years of this, management decided to make it part of the official job description!!! This is taken directly from the JetBlue job listing for First Officer on their web site:

When working or traveling on JetBlue flights, and if time permits, allcapable Crewmembers are asked to assist with light cleaning of the aircraft

This is what happens when Matt's attitude prevails. We are reduced to cleaning cabins as a part of our job description as professional air line pilots. Pathetic.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Sometimes I'll toss bags into the back.
I pick up trash in my airplane and I'm not ashamed to do it.
I also frequently go out of my way to help people out.

I guess that makes me unprofessional.

Nah, man, it makes you a 1900 FO.

Just means you're even more underpaid than the rest of us FOs in the
biz.

 

[Seggy]

BE1900 FO = Builds character

 

[Firebird2XC]

This thread's kinda interesting. It reads more like

"Techniques of the Airline Captain"

Haven't seen too many FOs speak up here. That's interesting, because it seems like the habits of FOs out there are the subject of alot of conversation.

Me personally, I try to do the following things.

As best I can manage, I'm always the first crewmember to the airplane. If I can be there when the airplane pulls up to the gate, I am. Since my duties include things like the pre-flight walkaround, this allows for maximum time to correct deficiencies prior to departure. And I won't front- since I'm a newbie, it gives me maximum time to figure out/look up something I'm not sure about.

The first time I fly with a new captain, I tell them the same thing. "I'm not totally new to 121 ops, but I'm new here. I leave my ego on the ground. I'm a sponge, and I'm all ears. Any input or criticism you might have is more than welcome." I've noticed this opens me up to some things that are downright weird or silly 'techniques' but have yet to see anything that compromises safety or common sense. It does, however, get them talking. Bridging the gap between "that crusty old-timer" and the "Ipod-packing RJ course takers" is step one in building crew cohesion. It's what gets you working together... not to mention LEARNING some things.

I learn a new technique, trick, or finer point about the airplane and the business every day I go to work.

Which leads us into my NEXT point, which may or may not be something everyone considers.
That old timer sitting next to you (or even that younger guy) might just keel over in flight. He might be too exhausted to fly and nod off en route... or he might have a heart attack and die right there in the seat. He might just be a total dufus that'll do something dangerous. Either way, it's your responsibility to be more than the one "assisting the captain." These are two pilot airplanes- you're a redundant two piece system, not a meat based autopilot. Every first officer, regardless of upgrade expectations is a captain in training and may well find himself suddenly a "single pilot operator" some day. Consider the recent event where the FO died in flight. What if it were reversed, and you were alone in that cockpit?

Every day an FO goes to work, they are a "Captain in training." Your job is to overlap everything the captain does, just like he does you. If he misses something important in his flows or checks, you should be able to determine where, and what. A Captain has the final decision making authority and responsibility on the airplane, of course, but that does not make him superhuman and incapable of making mistakes. If you don't know what he or she is doing and it looks wrong, ask. (I stress- ASK.. assuming it's not dangerous it is not your position to decide what's better- just to alert the Captain!) You'll either get educated on something you didn't know or you'll correct a potentially dangerous scenario. Approach it with that attitude and in time you'll have the skill set to deal with an emergency that's not on the checklist, should one ever happen.

Don't forget here- dealing with an emergency has more to consider than calling for the checklist and running through it.

Your homework, for everybody, both left seat and right:

Example: Your captain is incapacitated. You don't know why. You just notice you were punching expected altitudes for the STAR into your FMS and when you look up, he's drooling on himself. You shake him. You eventually rub your knuckles against his sternum, hard. No response. You check a pulse. Unsure.

What do you do?


Consider: Involvement of the rest of the crew. Declaration of emergency, diversion scenarios, and how you'd proceed from there. Is there a doctor on board? Do you risk compromising security and panicking the passengers by having the captain treated in flight, either in or outside the cockpit?

If you decide not to open the door.. what do you tell the FA? How do you best utilize their skill set to help them do their job so you can do yours?

Discuss.
(... and stop pissing in each other's cheerios... that's for 'other' threads..)

 

[Qgar]

All good questions/points, Charlie! You absolutely should keep the FA informed...You may need him/her to come into the cockpit to assist with something (maybe even getting the CA out of his seat so he doesn't set off anything.)
I don't know about Eagle, but we have deadheaders/jumpseaters on our flights most of the time and I can't tell you how happy I am to see them! I know I can count on them in case of an emergency of any kind. It is a great cockpit crew that keeps in contact with the cabin during the flight just to make sure everything is going smoothly in the back. While I recognize that some pilots aren't as "chatty" as others, it's nice to know they actually care about what's happening in the back, even on a good day day! It is especially nice when there have been delays and they sense the pax are "restless." Communication is a two-way street, after all!
That's why the recent GoJet incident over Hawaii dumbfounds me. Even if the pilots fell asleep, why didn't the FA's sense that anything was wrong and give them a call (unless I missed that being mentioned.) If the FA's are doing the same legs day in and day out, you would think they'd have a sense of timing. I dunno, maybe it's just me.

 

[Velocipede]

You want to know what this crap leads to? JetBlue pilots had the same attitude that Matt does. They helped out with picking up trash and tidying the cabin to "help out" the FAs and cabin cleaners. Low and behold, after a few years of this, management decided to make it part of the official job description!!! This is taken directly from the JetBlue job listing for First Officer on their web site:

When working or traveling on JetBlue flights, and if time permits, allcapable Crewmembers are asked to assist with light cleaning of the aircraft

This is what happens when Matt's attitude prevails. We are reduced to cleaning cabins as a part of our job description as professional air line pilots. Pathetic.

Exactly! And they're doing it for less pay and no pensions. Thanks a planeload, boys.

 

[Snuggle]

That's why the recent GoJet incident over Hawaii dumbfounds me.

The incident over Hawaii involved Go! airlines, GoJet is a different airline. Just wanted to put that on here seems a few people are confused about it.