Technical Engine Question.

You will know when you have detonation. Then engine will buck and kick. The piston has a hard time fighting the excessive pressure to make t=it to the top of the stroke. The fuel is no longer burning, it is exploding. And it will reek havoc on pistons, cyl walls, valves, bearings, crankshafts, rods, everything. It actually tries to stop the engine in it's tracks.

First, thanks a lot this was very helpful. Carbon buildup was what I was referring too when I asked if the fuel and oil mixed poorly, I was just thinking of the wrong cause.

As for detonation, correct me if I am wrong but the spark fires 30 degrees before top dead center. That is why he said "it actually tries to stop the engine in it's tracks," because the explosion happens (30 degrees before top dead center) while the piston is still travelling upwards. They showed us a piston at the college that had detonation, needless to say it was compressed to about 1/2 the normal size and looked like they had a field day on it with a couple of sledge hammers.
 
First, thanks a lot this was very helpful. Carbon buildup was what I was referring too when I asked if the fuel and oil mixed poorly, I was just thinking of the wrong cause.

As for detonation, correct me if I am wrong but the spark fires 30 degrees before top dead center. That is why he said "it actually tries to stop the engine in it's tracks," because the explosion happens (30 degrees before top dead center) while the piston is still travelling upwards. They showed us a piston at the college that had detonation, needless to say it was compressed to about 1/2 the normal size and looked like they had a field day on it with a couple of sledge hammers.

If I understand your post, you are right. First, no explosion. Remember fuel burns, not explodes. Compression ratio has a lot to due with when the spark will actually be triggered. A lower compression ratio usually tends to have higher spark timing. More compression leads to a greater risk of detonation. Octane rating also has a lot to do with detonation. When the pressures get to high, it can lead to detonation(explosion of fuel). Lower octanes tend to burn faster than higher octanes. And the ignition timing usually isn't fixed, usually. If you tried to start an engine at 30 deg. BTDC(before top dead center), it would be extreamly hard to start. Usually ign. timing is about 8-12 deg before TDC at lower RPM's(when starting). 30 deg is a very general statement. A normal combustion cycle doesn't want to stop an engine dead in it's tracks. The pressure builds untill it reaches it max just as the piston reaches TDC (top dead center), and forces the piston back down. Detonation will try to stop the engine dead in it's tracks, and is sometimes sucessful.

Arbitrary numbers here for ease. A compression ration of 8 to 1, should use 87 octane. A compression ration of 10 to 1, should use an octane of 92 or higher. 8 to 1 we will say builds a pressure of 800psi, 10 to 1 will build a pressure of 1000psi. These are just numbers for the sake of understanding and are not factual. More pressure causes the fuel to burn faster, so the higher the pressure (when the piston is at TDC), will need a higher octane. So ig you use 87 octane in a 10-1 motor, you will probably get at the least pre-ignition.

For those of you who are using premium octane in your auto, that don't require it, you are wasting money. It's simply not necessary, and you could actually be hurting performance/milage. Refer to your owners manual, and use the minimum octane specified. It will give you the best power and economy.

My background so those reading this don't think I am some kid sitting behind his computer screen. I spent 9 years as a wrench for a major car company, and was silver certified. Four more tests, and I would have been gold (I had no desire to fix automatic transmissions). I left the industry to follow my dreams, and have my kid see his daddy do something he loves, rather than something he can do. I was Disel certified, Sprinter certified, Prowler certified, Viper certified, and an "Engine Specailist."
 
If I understand your post, you are right. First, no explosion. Remember fuel burns, not explodes. Compression ratio has a lot to due with when the spark will actually be triggered. A lower compression ratio usually tends to have higher spark timing. More compression leads to a greater risk of detonation. Octane rating also has a lot to do with detonation. When the pressures get to high, it can lead to detonation(explosion of fuel). Lower octanes tend to burn faster than higher octanes. And the ignition timing usually isn't fixed, usually. If you tried to start an engine at 30 deg. BTDC(before top dead center), it would be extreamly hard to start. Usually ign. timing is about 8-12 deg before TDC at lower RPM's(when starting). 30 deg is a very general statement. A normal combustion cycle doesn't want to stop an engine dead in it's tracks. The pressure builds untill it reaches it max just as the piston reaches TDC (top dead center), and forces the piston back down. Detonation will try to stop the engine dead in it's tracks, and is sometimes sucessful. "

Just wanted to clarify here. But I also wanted to say your posts were very well written and informative. The timing and Octane numbers you gave are very specific to automotive engines. The octane ratings in Aircraft fuels use a different rating system than normal auto gas. Another thing you need to keep an eye on is that AVGAS is Leaded, and the "Gunked Up" plugs that you are hearing about is from lead fouling which will bridge the gap between the electrodes and prevent a spark. When a customer brings in a "rough' engine, that is usually our first Suspect, which is caused by running a rich engine. 80% of the time we clear it up by running the engine at full power and leaning for peak EGT for about 5 minutes or so to clear the plugs, if that doesn't work we typically pull and clean the plugs before suspecting other problems.

In most Recip Aircraft engines the compressions are lower and therefore have different Timing than Automotive engines. So the original statement of about 30 degrees BTDC is far more accurate than 8-12 degrees. Now the timing is dependant on the engine manufacturer and configuration and certified fuel; but it is typically between 23-28 degrees BTDC. Most aircraft engines, with the exception of the Turbo Diesels, all have fixed timing once the engine is started. On start-up the magneto's impulse compling serves 2 purposes, one to accelerate the magneto to provide a stronger spark, and 2, to retard the timing to nearly 0 degrees BTDC.


Now for my $.02 about the LOP or ROP discussion. In Aviation Engines you want to run slightly ROP, Unlike Automotive Gas, AVGAS has some small lubricating properties, but like the previous poster said, you run too much fuel in the cylinder you will "wash" the cylinder walls, but Aviation engines still rely on the Gas for partial cooling and partial lubrication of the cylinder. And as soon as you start running LOP, you start starving the engine and losing power, very bad thing in aviation. Thats my 2 cents, but now for the legal requirements of my A&P.... Consult your POH for the final say.


Edit: Figured I should give you some background so you know I actually know a little about some things.
Been an A&P for over 10 years. 6.5 years Working on Jets, factory trained on CFM-56, CF-6, CF-34 engines, 737s 767s, 707s, and CRJs. 4 years as a GA mechanic working on Cessnas Pipers, Beech, Cirrus, and Diamond aircraft. Factory trained and certified on Lycomings, Continentals and Theilert engines. Did the GA stint to help pay for a small part of my Aerospace Engineering Degree at Embry-Riddle.
 
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