Technical Engine Question.

shdw

Well-Known Member
Would "efficient" aircraft leaning give an appreciable improvement in performance over a long period for the engine and generally cheaper repairs during overhauls? I ask this because I was always taught to lean the mixture on taxi because of excessively rich mixtures on taxi with a lower power setting (low MP), would often leave unburned fuel and "gunk up," as they called it, the spark plugs. My thinking is maybe the unburned fuel could harden and cause excess wear on any of the other engines moving parts.

Does unlit fuel with mixed oil mix badly?

At higher power settings does the higher MP and engine temp cause better firring and total fuel burn, leaving the mixture unimportant?

Does this change with altitude? IE the richer mixture as you climb can it get to be too rich?

Oh and don't forget the very first question, that is the important one.



Thanks hope that isn't too much for one post!
 
Would "efficient" aircraft leaning give an appreciable improvement in performance over a long period for the engine and generally cheaper repairs during overhauls?

Yes

I ask this because I was always taught to lean the mixture on taxi because of excessively rich mixtures on taxi with a lower power setting (low MP), would often leave unburned fuel and "gunk up," as they called it, the spark plugs.

Yes, sort of. Close enough for you to know 'leaning is good'.


Does unlit fuel with mixed oil mix badly? ?? Don't know.

At higher power settings does the higher MP and engine temp cause better firring and total fuel burn, leaving the mixture unimportant?

Mixture is important in all power settings. Small, closely cowled aircraft engines will run hot at full throttle slow airspeed settings, such as take-off climbs, so extra rich fuel is designed to give extra cooling, but once you throttle back and increase airspeed, OR gain enough altitude, you should lean to best performance.

Does this change with altitude? IE the richer mixture as you climb can it get to be too rich?

Yes. you should lean as you climb. The bigger the engine, the more important this is. Big engines will 'flood', or get so rich that they quit, at altitudes as low as 5000 - 7000 ft.

Little trainer engines won't quit, and this is the reason that most flight schools and instructors don't teach good leaning techniques.

They would rather have a student 'gunk up' the plugs than risk 'overleaning', but that doesn't make it a good habit.

I killed the engines of a twin Cessna when I pushed the mixtures rich when I started a descent from 7000'. So I practice good leaning.
 
I ask this because I was always taught to lean the mixture on taxi because of excessively rich mixtures on taxi with a lower power setting (low MP), would often leave unburned fuel and "gunk up," as they called it, the spark plugs.

Yes, sort of. Close enough for you to know 'leaning is good'.

I mean more technical reasons so that I can understand it. Looking for a theoretical/mechanical look on why it is better. Can you give more information? Thanks.



Does unlit fuel with mixed oil mix badly? ?? Don't know.

I was thinking that the unlit fuel would bond with oil poorly, possibly leaving build up ove sharper objects that could damage internal engine parts. Such as scratch the piston sleeves, jam up rodes, slow down the engine from excessively dirty oil and that sort of thing. That is why I asked if they bonded poorly.



Little trainer engines won't quit, and this is the reason that most flight schools and instructors don't teach good leaning techniques.

They would rather have a student 'gunk up' the plugs than risk 'overleaning', but that doesn't make it a good habit.

Question 1 was referring to little trainer aircraft engines. Would they have a longer engine life and better permance?
 
I have been looking around for an engine study on something like this with no luck, if anyone has any reference please post it. Thanks again guys
 
Yes, leaning makes a big difference.

My boss loves guys who run lean of peak. Their zeal to save gas cooks cylinders quite rapidly and keeps us in business.

The hotter your engine is, the more oil it will use. The hotter the oil gets the less viscosity it has which means it doesn't lubricate as well. The more oil you burn the more wear on the engine.

Lean of peak saves a little gas but when a new cylinder costs $6k you're still throwing money away.
 
Lean of peak saves a little gas but when a new cylinder costs $6k you're still throwing money away.

Completely off topic, "efficient leaning." I just want to clear this up for any further readers, I by no means am referring to leaning even to best power. I am referring to leaning the aircraft for better total fuel burn performance in the aircraft. Meaning leass left over gas that doesn't burn and gets mixed with the oil gunking up and dirtying that lovely oil. Maybe a, minimum unburned fuel mixture setting?
 
Yes, leaning makes a big difference.

My boss loves guys who run lean of peak. Their zeal to save gas cooks cylinders quite rapidly and keeps us in business.

The hotter your engine is, the more oil it will use. The hotter the oil gets the less viscosity it has which means it doesn't lubricate as well. The more oil you burn the more wear on the engine.

Lean of peak saves a little gas but when a new cylinder costs $6k you're still throwing money away.

I never understood this. If it is lean of peak, it isn't running hotter than the same degree rich of peak.
 
I never understood this. If it is lean of peak, it isn't running hotter than the same degree rich of peak.

I didn't even read what he said further than to see it was off topic sorry. But you are right, peak EGT is in fact that, the top there is no higher to go. Lean of peak actually slows down the rpm which is why the temp goes back down. So I am unsure what he is referring to, maybe the cylinder head temp is hotter? But I would doubt that since I would expect EGT follow the same trend as CHT. Maybe my logic is flawed?

I am hoping someone can provide a more theory based with mechanical understanding as to why a certain mixture is best. Not leaning for high temps, but just for more efficient total fuel burn with minimum unburned fuel in the cylinders.
 
Completely off topic, "efficient leaning." I just want to clear this up for any further readers, I by no means am referring to leaning even to best power. I am referring to leaning the aircraft for better total fuel burn performance in the aircraft. Meaning leass left over gas that doesn't burn and gets mixed with the oil gunking up and dirtying that lovely oil. Maybe a, minimum unburned fuel mixture setting?

Certanly not completely off topic Mister.
As a fairly technical person myself I wonder what sort of explanation you are looking for. How technical would you like it?

Your "minimum unburned fuel leftover setting" is when your engine reaches it's peak. Running rich of peak (although recommended) since fuel is also a coolant is better than running lean of peak. Running peak continously requires constant adjustment as the temperature of air, and engine change within small amounts all the time. You would be busy.
Refer to Lycoming or Continentals Advisories on efficient engine settings. I won't post the link, as you like to research.

You will find it rather hard to find scientific information on this subject, as you are looking at 60 year old technology (and efficiency) packed in a nice looking cowling. The average U.S. Piston Engine is a Pig from an efficiency and economy standpoint - which I use as example to explain to my students that "Pigs can indeed fly!"

Added: If unburned fuel "poisons" your oil or vice versa it's time for new rings and a few other things.
 
Certanly not completely off topic Mister.
As a fairly technical person myself I wonder what sort of explanation you are looking for. How technical would you like it?

I wasn't trying to shut him down I am just not looking for pilot knowledge here, I hoping some of the resident mechanics or if I am really lucky engineers can chime in. On a technical level I am looking for how an engine mechanic and how an engine engineer/designer would explain to me the effects of full rich versus effective aircraft leaning(Added: Where effective aircraft leaning refers to whatever procedure they belive best and why, I don't care if what the book tells us. Like it or not designers, not all but most, think pilots are dumb and make things easier in many cases just so we don't screw it up). Including, if they exist, better procedures then are currently used that just arn't used because they are "too much" for the lamens term pilot.

In comparisson this reply to me was the same as me asking for a technical look at a steep turn and being told at 60 degrees we are at 2Gs. I would want the aerodynamics full effected on all surfaces, what each input would do to effect the aircraft (rudder to slip = slower inside wing closer to stall). That sort of thing where it is in terms I can understand but much more technical then you would ever teach a student.

One last note, this is for a side project I am working on so I want to find out economically what we might save from proper leaning and details as to why. What components of the engine will have a longer life? how much longer? why? etc... That help?
 
Yes, leaning makes a big difference.

My boss loves guys who run lean of peak. Their zeal to save gas cooks cylinders quite rapidly and keeps us in business.

The hotter your engine is, the more oil it will use. The hotter the oil gets the less viscosity it has which means it doesn't lubricate as well. The more oil you burn the more wear on the engine.

Lean of peak saves a little gas but when a new cylinder costs $6k you're still throwing money away.

My CHT temps are about 30 degrees cooler when Im Lean of peak vs Rich of Peak on the EGT. Running cooler saves wear Im sure.

Running Lean of peak wont cook engines, in fact you can keep leaning and get 120 degrees LOP and keep leaning till the engine keeps cooling and it will gently lose power no harm done. Running to close to peak of power is where temps rapidly rise, and causes wear.

Not all planes can handle LOP well. One plane I fly the cylinders creates "uneven" horsepower when running LOP which causes it to run rough.
 
My CHT temps are about 30 degrees cooler when Im Lean of peak vs Rich of Peak on the EGT. Running cooler saves wear Im sure.

Running Lean of peak wont cook engines, in fact you can keep leaning and get 120 degrees LOP and keep leaning till the engine keeps cooling and it will gently lose power no harm done. Running to close to peak of power is where temps rapidly rise, and causes wear.

Not all planes can handle LOP well. One plane I fly the cylinders creates "uneven" horsepower when running LOP which causes it to run rough.
That is what I have always thought. I think it needs a very precise fuel delivery method to equally distribute fuel to each cylinder for even power. CAMI injectors claim to do this.
 
Does nobody here know if there is a theoretically best way to lean aircraft engines? Both for on the ground operations and in the air for: cruise, climb, descent, maneuver, etc. Why that method and what kind of expected life expectancy increase could you get from the engine if these leaning procedures were followed to a T.

Also to go even further with this, engine start up and shut down. Is it better to let the engine run to about 1200/1300 on initial start then back it off to 1000 or less or is it better to start it under a 1000 even though it might be misfiring during that start.

Is there a "least unburned fuel" mixture setting? Is it in fact best power as someone mentioned before or is it not that simple? Why?

Finally, has anyone figured out or does anyone know if unburned fuel that mixes with oil causes build up that puts excess wear on the engine? Or does it just gunk up the spark plugs? Does it effect power output?

Thanks again guys and man where is the maintenance crew!?
 
Does nobody here know if there is a theoretically best way to lean aircraft engines? Both for on the ground operations and in the air for: cruise, climb, descent, maneuver, etc. Why that method and what kind of expected life expectancy increase could you get from the engine if these leaning procedures were followed to a T.

Also to go even further with this, engine start up and shut down. Is it better to let the engine run to about 1200/1300 on initial start then back it off to 1000 or less or is it better to start it under a 1000 even though it might be misfiring during that start.

Is there a "least unburned fuel" mixture setting? Is it in fact best power as someone mentioned before or is it not that simple? Why?

Finally, has anyone figured out or does anyone know if unburned fuel that mixes with oil causes build up that puts excess wear on the engine? Or does it just gunk up the spark plugs? Does it effect power output?

Thanks again guys and man where is the maintenance crew!?


The Links Steve posted above should answer all your questions if you read it all, I found John Deakin's articles very informative.
 
Would "efficient" aircraft leaning give an appreciable improvement in performance over a long period for the engine and generally cheaper repairs during overhauls? I ask this because I was always taught to lean the mixture on taxi because of excessively rich mixtures on taxi with a lower power setting (low MP), would often leave unburned fuel and "gunk up," as they called it, the spark plugs. My thinking is maybe the unburned fuel could harden and cause excess wear on any of the other engines moving parts.

Does unlit fuel with mixed oil mix badly?

At higher power settings does the higher MP and engine temp cause better firring and total fuel burn, leaving the mixture unimportant?

Does this change with altitude? IE the richer mixture as you climb can it get to be too rich?

Oh and don't forget the very first question, that is the important one.



Thanks hope that isn't too much for one post!


O.K., let me start off by stating that I spent more than my far share turning wrenches, and have seen the affects of an improper mixture. A few things come into play, and I'll try to sum them up as simply as I can.

#1 cause of engine wear with an overly rich mixture is washing down the cyl. walls with fuel, which causes cyl. wall glazing. Cyls. are honed with a cross hatching that helps to hold the oil on the walls (more surface area for the oil to stick to). When you run an engine rich, the fuel thats not burned acts like a solvent to wash the cyl walls down, and the oil gets washed away causing excessive wear and glazing.

The second factor is the unburnt fuel will get past the rings, and into the oil, diluting it, causing engine wear. Thiner oil (i.e. 10w30 vs 20w50 or 100w), will still protect the engine fine. But if it has a solvent in it (i.e. gasoline), then you usually have metal to metal contact. When an engine starts to make metal, it's usually the beginning of the end.

one more factor is the excessive carbon buildup from a rich mixture. I'm sure you remember the two phrases heard during your systems training, detonation and pre-ignition. The two of them are very destructive conditions. Contrary to common misconceptions, detonation is actually the worse of the two. Have you ever heard your car making that "pinging" noise while climbing a hill under high power settings. Thats pre-ignition. Whats happening is the fuel is starting to light too soon, or you have hot spots causing two flame fronts to collide in the combustion chamber. It's not too bad for the engine, but is the precursor for detonation. When the spark lights the fuel in the engine, it's a gradual burn. Pre-ignition is when two fronts collide. Detonation is very, very bad for an engine. It will make the top of the piston look like someone beat it up with a hammer. You will know when you have detonation. Then engine will buck and kick. The piston has a hard time fighting the excessive pressure to make t=it to the top of the stroke. The fuel is no longer burning, it is exploding. And it will reek havoc on pistons, cyl walls, valves, bearings, crankshafts, rods, everything. It actually tries to stop the engine in it's tracks. Have you ever seen a radial operator turn the engine through by hand so they don't hydro-lock it during startup? It will bend/break con rods much like detonation will. Now back to the excessive carbon buildup from earlier. This carbon can cause hot spots that will ignite the fuel prematurely, and cause pinging (pre-ignition). If it gets bad enough, and the hot spots get big enough, it will cause detonation.

Lastly, when you run rich, and get that extra carbon buildup on the top end of the engine, it will usually make its way past the rings, and into the crank case. If you are lucky, it will stay there. If your not, it will go through the engine like little pieces of sand paper, or worse, like little rocks, and muck everything up.

Lean while taxing so the engine almost wants to quit. There will not be enough heat to hurt anything, your simply not making enough power. When in cruise, lean to max power. Cyl temps should be at their most efficient at that point, and you won't hurt anything that way either. If you can do it and can monitor all the cyls' temps, not just an overall egt., lean to 50 deg lean of peak. But only if you can get all of the cyls. temps individually, not just an overall EGT. I personally never run at peak EGT. It just creates too much heat, and like a previous poster said, ruins things. An engine, properly leaned and well maintained, should make it to TBO with never having been opened up nearly every time.

edit: The reason why automobiles now run 0w30 or 10w30 is only because the tolerances have gotten much better over the years, and the higher viscosity only makes it easier for the oil to "fill in the gaps" of the old school machining processes.
 
Back
Top