Teaching Steep Spirals

troopernflight

troopernflight

Well-Known Member
I'm having some issues with a student on steep spirals and I'm not sure what to tell him to corrrect it. He understands the concept, with bank varying with ground speed, etc. and he is able to stay over the reference point, but has a hard time maintaining glide speed. When he turns downwind/steep bank the airspeed builds quickly, and then he tries to slow down by pulling up, and imposes high g-load on aircraft. Then he'll get too slow on the upwind/shallow bank, and the cycle continues each time around. I told him he needed to concentrate more on maintaining glide speed and to make corrections before the airspeed got away from him. I told him to try anticipating the increase in airspeed with some back pressure before it increases, but nothing seemed to work. Any ideas on what might be occurring here and how to correct it? I'm a new CFI and still trying to learn how to make all these maneuvers understandable.
 
What speed do you have him set for his descent? Maybe you could practice the maneuver "not too steep" and then progress from there. Baby steps. Sometime it takes students more practice with certain maneuvers.
 
I would say to immediately trim the airplane once he pulls the power. Then to develop a scan every few second to check A/S and correct using pitch. Is part of the reason on the downwind, because he adds power to clear the engine? May just want to be careful with that, such as only increasing power half way.
 
Aircraft was trimmed for best glide speed, this is a DA20- 73knots. It's almost like he was out of synch with when to make pitch adjustments, i.e. pitch down with steep bank, pitch up with shallow bank. I wish I could be more specific, but all I can say is that it just wasn't working. I may need to do one to the right and demonstrate it to him, but I just didn't have time to do that today. Not to mention, we had been into commercial maneuvers for 1.5 hours and he wanted to keep going, so fatigue might have been a factor making it more difficult for him.
 
I always had problems with this maneuver. It shares elements with turns around a point. To this day, I can keep a nice radius and glidespeed at a lower bank, but at higher banks close to 60, I'm very sloppy. Always weaving in and out from the point and airspeed going up and down. It's a tough maneuver.
 
troopernflight said:
Not to mention, we had been into commercial maneuvers for 1.5 hours and he wanted to keep going, so fatigue might have been a factor making it more difficult for him.
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That's part of your answer, anything past 1.5 hours and most students start fading fast regardless of how long they have been flying. Part of a CFI's job is keeping an eye on the student's mental endurance. This is especially true for primary students.

Another problem area is pattern flights, I make sure to not let the student do more than 4 in a row. I take every 5th one just to give them a breather.
 
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trooper, I had the same issue a few years ago with a student. Run drills with him. Pull the power straight and level, hold airspeed (best glide). Bank 30, hold airspeed. Bank 60, hold airspeed. Have him focus on holding airspeed not just at each bank, but during the transition both in and out of these banks. If he exceeds +/- 5 knots, have him roll level and start over.

The important part is to develop the skill outside of the maneuver, then bring it back into the maneuver.
 
TWP said:
trooper, I had the same issue a few years ago with a student. Run drills with him. Pull the power straight and level, hold airspeed (best glide). Bank 30, hold airspeed. Bank 60, hold airspeed. Have him focus on holding airspeed not just at each bank, but during the transition both in and out of these banks. If he exceeds +/- 5 knots, have him roll level and start over.

The important part is to develop the skill outside of the maneuver, then bring it back into the maneuver.
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Thanks, that sounds like a great idea. I will give it a try!
 
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Where is his attention? Is it all on staying over the point? Sounds like it is. Keep his head moving. Sounds to me like there are some serious pitch oscillations. Trim will help, but keep his head moving inside, out front, and at the point.
 
My airspeed reference is mostly outside the airplane. The transition from the different bank angles is difficult but it is easier to anticipate when your eyes are looking out then back at the field you are planing to land on. Thats why coordination by seat is important with this maneuver.
 
How is he with pitch control during steep turns? Seems like he may not be adjusting for the decreased vertical lift during a steep turn, and when he shallows out, holding the same pitch, which is now too much, causing it to slow.

When I was learning them during primary and got pitch-low, the sequence of
1. Remove a little bank
2. Pitch up
3. Put the bank back in - really helped. Otherwise he got his tightened spiral.

N57flyguy - I love N57. Been there twice for PilotsNPaws hand-offs so far. You guys are doing things right!
 
askulte said:
How is he with pitch control during steep turns? Seems like he may not be adjusting for the decreased vertical lift during a steep turn, and when he shallows out, holding the same pitch, which is now too much, causing it to slow.

When I was learning them during primary and got pitch-low, the sequence of
1. Remove a little bank
2. Pitch up
3. Put the bank back in - really helped. Otherwise he got his tightened spiral.

N57flyguy - I love N57. Been there twice for PilotsNPaws hand-offs so far. You guys are doing things right!
Click to expand...

Didn't see this! Minus the good advice, I don't frequent as much as I should. Its my "home" airport where I learned to fly. I worked there till 09 when new management (my CFI) started making positive changes. Great airport, great people, and a great atmosphere that is only getting better. It is cool to see the modernization along side a grassroots principals.
 
Maybe a little whiteboard time discussing lift vector management might help? Getting the student to correlate varying bank angles with vertical lift could take an abstract concept and put it into the airplane with him.
 
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