Teaching On Harder Runways

[CDNPilotDave]

First off, great topic. If I interpret your question correctly, I think that you are asking whether old school, low tech flying is a better route to take. Succeeding at the most challenging task using the most primitive of tools likely means one has mastered the task. Being a pilot is so much more than that. Don't get me wrong, if I was choosing teammates for the schoolyard pickup team, Mr. Stick/Rudder/Shortfield would be snapped up early. I think that what comprises quality training is substantially more than stick, rudder and short fields. My view of training is that the quality of a pilot is directly proportional to that pilot's undersanding and mastery of a combination of 1) Rules, Regs and Procedures (FAR/AIM) 2) Weather 3) Human Phsyiology 4) Communications 5) Aerodynamics 6) Aircraft Systems. To a greater or lesser extent each aspect will play a role at any one point in a flight. My goal when training students is to get them to appreciate all areas and be able to problem solve.

Back in the day when I attended public school, there were no calculators. I wore out many a pencil making calculations but learned arithmetic very well, probably better than most. To this day I do a lot of calculations in my head. When I was studying for my degree, most of my peers were younger than I, and well versed with technology. They had grown up in an era with computers. They had no need for times tables and derivations from basic principles. They got the job done without the stick and rudder skills. Probably better than did I. Who was better? In many was, the younger, technically exposed were. However, I would rather be the more well rounded. Being really good at only one thing pretty much limits you to that one thing. I prefer the broader knowledge base.

If there is one and only one thing, when it comes to landing, IMO (and subsequently the way I teach) is that airspeed is king. The less floating you do, waiting to bleed off airspeed, the less runway you waste time floating above.

 

[LV-ARG]

Learning to fly the "hard" way does not make you a better pilot. As you stop landing on short runways, or using pilotage-dead reckogning techniques, you become sloppy and your skills will decay to the point they will no longer be there.

I started flying on a crappy c150B and used to do touch and go's on a 600m (2000ft) grass runway (34º 18' 00"S 58º 48' 00"W). The airplane was equiped for hardcore VFR (no DG,HA,VOR,ADF,TX or GPS). Then I transitioned into flying a G1000 equiped C172 on a 10000foot runway and my previous experience didnt make my life any easier. When I went back to flying this old school airplanes on grass strips I had to "re-learn" what I already "knew".

IMO ADM is the only "skill" that determines wether you are a good pilot or not.

 

[dasleben]

Learning to fly the "hard" way does not make you a better pilot. As you stop landing on short runways, or using pilotage-dead reckogning techniques, you become sloppy and your skills will decay to the point they will no longer be there.

I started flying on a crappy c150B and used to do touch and go's on a 600m (2000ft) grass runway (34º 18' 00"S 58º 48' 00"W). The airplane was equiped for hardcore VFR (no DG,HA,VOR,ADF,TX or GPS). Then I transitioned into flying a G1000 equiped C172 on a 10000foot runway and my previous experience didnt make my life any easier. When I went back to flying this old school airplanes on grass strips I had to "re-learn" what I already "knew".

IMO ADM is the only "skill" that determines wether you are a good pilot or not.

Not a cut down in any shape or form, but with 215 hours it's easy to get out of practice to the point where you'll have to "re-learn" many of the tasks you've previously done. If you'd been flying that old C150 into a grass runway for say, 1000 hours, you could take some time off and manage to get back into it without too much hassle.

 

[Roger, Roger]

When they're a brand noob...they don't know to be scared of a short strip. Only after landing long on a 9000' runway do they learn to fear a 3500' runway. They learn that on their own.


-mini

Interesting observation. Maybe if I ever get back into the instructing game I'll apply it.

 

[sr22driver]

I started at 2J0 on a 2590 X 70 grass srtip in a 172RG. I teach at both TLH and 2J0. They take off from TLH, head south to the beach practice area and when it's time for T&G's we go to 2J0. Makes for more passes through the pattern and lets them hone their skills alittle. After a few around the patch it's back to TLH and a couple there as well. When it's time for them to solo we go to 2J0 and they do 3 T&G's 3 full stop taxi backs then it's off to TLH to do 3 more T&G's. It gives them the availibility to have the controlled aspect and the freedom and responsibility of uncontolled. Haven't had a complaint yet, but I'm scarry looking so I don't expect to much lip form these people.

 

[Okie_Pilot]

You can't teach anything on a 12,000' runway that I can't teach on a 2500' runway in a typical trainer. Your student can't learn anything mine can't. If you can't teach students on short runways, you should get some additional training yourself and figure out where you're struggling.



When they're a brand noob...they don't know to be scared of a short strip. Only after landing long on a 9000' runway do they learn to fear a 3500' runway. They learn that on their own.


-mini

:yeahthat: :clap:

 

[minitour]

Interesting observation. Maybe if I ever get back into the instructing game I'll apply it.

It's just like anything in aviation. You don't know what you don't know.

They don't know that a 3500' runway is "tight" for a 172 (which, it isn't) or that a 35' wide runway is "narrow". If that's all they land on, then when they get this BIG PIECE OF PAVEMENT to land on, it seems easy. You just have to make sure they're focusing on hitting their aiming point in that case (which shouldn't be the numbers, IMHO). It seems "normal" to them. Same with grass. I never got any real instruction landing on actual grass strips. I don't think I'd be very good at teaching actual soft/rough field landings. I'd need lots of training probably. To me, they seem "difficult".

-mini

 

[SuperCubRick]

You might also have trouble with some of the academics of flying...a lot of the guys who spend all their time flying SuperCubs don't really know/need/care about things like regulations.

Yeah, us Super Cub guys are just a bunch of lawless barnstorming hooligans! :laff:

I know what you mean though, pilots flying around busy airports / airspace or IFR will certainly be more knowledgeable about procedures and regulations than those flying only in the bush - but I think the bush pilots are better as far as the handling of the airplane - because they need to be, to do what they do, and vice versa.

 

[jrh]

Yeah, us Super Cub guys are just a bunch of lawless barnstorming hooligans! :laff:

I know what you mean though, pilots flying around busy airports / airspace or IFR will certainly be more knowledgeable about procedures and regulations than those flying only in the bush - but I think the bush pilots are better as far as the handling of the airplane - because they need to be, to do what they do, and vice versa.

Meh...I suppose.

But to bring this back to the original question of how to structure one's initial training, the thing I ask myself is, what's "good enough" for a pilot? After all, perfection never exists.

Some people act like it's the be all, end all to be able to put their wheels down within 4 feet of a point. They focus on one skill so much as to almost exclude others. That's why I think it's a bad idea to go chase down the gnarliest Super Cub bush pilot out there for your instructor, thinking he'll make you an awesome pilot, because I think the chances are high that you will become an awesome pilot...in one very specific flight regime. My experience with that type of pilot/instructor is that they oftentimes are too narrowly focused in their philosophy for flying.

My goal personally, as well as for the people I train, is to be good enough to handle whatever comes along the way.

I went out this morning to screw around in my C-140. I bounced around to a few different grass strips and found I could consistently put it down within 100 feet of where I wanted. Good enough. Earlier this week I ferried a Turbo Arrow 1,100 miles away, in to Canada, under IFR the whole trip. I didn't have the needles perfectly crossed up every moment of the flight, but it was easily to instrument standards. Those are drastically different planes with drastically different missions.

But the bottom line is that I have the training and skills to handle both situations very safely and competently. Am I the best stick out there? No. Am I the best IFR/XC/ferry pilot out there? No. There will always be somebody better than me with all those things. But I'm *good enough* to get the job done, while always looking for ways to improve.

I'd much rather have it that way, because the day to day responsibilities of most pilots is so varied. It's better to get good at everything rather than nearly perfect at only a few skills.

 

[ProudPilot]

Some people act like it's the be all, end all to be able to put their wheels down within 4 feet of a point. They focus on one skill so much as to almost exclude others.


It's better to get good at everything rather than nearly perfect at only a few skills.

:yeahthat::clap:

 

[minitour]

Some people act like it's the be all, end all to be able to put their wheels down within 4 feet of a point. They focus on one skill so much as to almost exclude others.

Who said that?

-mini

 

[jrh]

Who said that?

Nobody in this thread. Just various pilots I've met over the years.

Usually the same guys who hate G1000 avionics

 

[minitour]

Nobody in this thread. Just various pilots I've met over the years.

Usually the same guys who hate G1000 avionics

But without a "glass cockpit" rolleyes how will you ever know where you are? Or which way is "up"?

-mini

 

[Callador]

But without a "glass cockpit" rolleyes how will you ever know where you are? Or which way is "up"?

-mini

This is why I exclusively fly glass with the new Garmin 1200 (HAL edition). He won't let me screw up!

On a more serious note, I think it is a good idea to take some students into short/narrow runways just to see that they can do it. They usually have the skills to get a Cessna down on a 2,000 ft runway without a problem, but a lot of times they don't believe they can until they see it. It is a good idea to show they some places with real obstacles too! Most times people clear the runway on take-off just to hit some stuff at the end.

 

[jrh]

But without a "glass cockpit" rolleyes how will you ever know where you are? Or which way is "up"?

Haha...I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not?

All I know is that I cheat death every time I step in to a cockpit, regardless of the avionics, or lack thereof. :rawk:

 

[swisspilot]

Learning to fly the "hard" way does not make you a better pilot. As you stop landing on short runways, or using pilotage-dead reckogning techniques, you become sloppy and your skills will decay to the point they will no longer be there.

I started flying on a crappy c150B and used to do touch and go's on a 600m (2000ft) grass runway (34º 18' 00"S 58º 48' 00"W). The airplane was equiped for hardcore VFR (no DG,HA,VOR,ADF,TX or GPS). Then I transitioned into flying a G1000 equiped C172 on a 10000foot runway and my previous experience didnt make my life any easier. When I went back to flying this old school airplanes on grass strips I had to "re-learn" what I already "knew".

IMO ADM is the only "skill" that determines wether you are a good pilot or not.

Wow that place looks really cool, is the school still there? I may ck it out if I go to BA, it's really rare that a big city has a grass trip like that, we use to have one here, in Rio, but they built a Residential community on it, the only other strip we have is really far from the city, but it's an amazing place and it's a military airport, X wind is always 10+ Kts:
http://maps.google.com.br/maps?f=q&...282,-42.505589&spn=0.029169,0.055189&t=h&z=14
It's also the South American capital of Surf

 

[killbilly]

Just wanted to thank you all for a thoughtful discussion on this thread. By all means, please carry on, but I appreciate the level of civility in the discourse.

For me...

I'm actually due for a BFR - I let it lapse because I've been so busy, but I think I'm going to stretch that BFR into a two-day event and brush up on some skills, especially pilotage/dead reckoning - if for no other reason than it's cheaper around here to rent airplanes without GPS.

Part of that two-day event I'm planning will likely involve some tailwheel time, because I just love flying the Supercub. Might as well knock the rust off the fun way.

After all of that, I think about 10-15 more hours of XC PIC time, and then it will be time to start on my IR. Really need to get that done. I can do a fair amount of business travel and take some tax deductions (and get a little expense reimbursement out of it) and build time that way, too. But I need the IR to make it worthwhile.