Teaching landings

J

JordanD

Here so I don’t get fined
I feel like I'm not teaching landings very well. A lot of people seem to keep zigzagging through the centerline on final and the only real advice I have is to stop overcorrecting, which I think is what's going on combined with flat out overcontrolling the airplane. I'm having a really hard time getting anyone to round out and flare at the right altitude either. It seems like everyone is either rounding out really high and I have to save it from smashing onto the runway or we're rounding out too late and I find myself paranoid we're going to plant it on the nosewheel and break something. Any suggestions? I'm telling them to level out at about 10 feet and act like they're trying to hold that altitude and everything will fall together, and I'm teaching them to shift their eyes to the far end of the runway during the flare, but every roundout still makes me almost cringe because we feel like we're going to drop in or plant it on the nosewheel. Any suggestions? I feel like it's a real weak spot in my teaching at the moment (brand new CFI, all my students are in the <10 hour category)

Another thing, and this is probably a matter of opinion, but when should I step in to save them from breaking something? I think part of the reason I'm so paranoid is I did a checkout and let one progress a little too far, slammed onto the nosewheel and managed to flatspot a brand new tire and put the airplane out of service while they changed it. This was within my first 10 hours of dual given so needless to say it shook me a tad and I'm paranoid about the student really breaking something, be it a tire, punching the nose strut up into the cowling, bending a firewall, or worse. But at the same time I feel like I'm on the controls entirely too much "helping" them and that's not good either, so I need to work out when to step in and when to let it go.

Any advice is appreciated! Especially in how to get my students to get the roundout and flare down properly.
 
God.. I have the same issue. Not so much with the flare but getting them to visualize staying on the centerline, especially with a crosswind. I'm looking forward to what the most experience instructors have to say as I'm fairly green myself with less than 100 hours of instruction given. I don't know what else to say to them expect what you're saying, stop over correcting.
 
Remember, it's a sight picture. I actually take the time to break down the landing phase over a matter of 10+ seconds. I've had students instantly point for the sky when we were still 50' AGL. Consider a new student as a nervous wreck trying to fly an airplane. Most new students have that" ERRRmagherd the ground is coming up," and over flare. Help your student by breaking down the scenario step by step. If your approach speed is 65-70 knots TAS then + or - the headwind component. break down the descent if feet per second. It's probably 5-7 feet per second. This explanation has helped a lot of my students because the most common questions are, "when do I flare" , "When do I reduce power"? and "How fast is the ground really coming up"?

I had one student who I found was really over-microscopically worried about every little detail of data the 6 pack could tell him. The solution was to cover all the instruments except for his Airspeed. I forced him to look outside more and ignore the panel. His main problem was over flaring. You just gotta explain that the flare is nothing instantaneous and nice SLOW and SMOOTH transition is what's required.

Teach them about the dangers of hard nosewheel plants and the damage it can do. The mains are pretty tough. If your teaching in a 172, the mains are tough as hell. Cessna drops those things from 30 feet and they don't break. The struts bow up and flex, but they don't break. I had to bounce it down the runway once for a student for him to see that the mains weren't going to break. The nosewheel though, that's different,.

Also, I like to explain the landing as if it's like merging on a highway. Slow and smooth, nothing instantaneous or aggressive.
 
Have them put the centerline under their seat and keep it there with the ailerons while keeping the nose pointing down the runway with the rudder. It makes them slip into the wind and land on the upwind wheel everytime. If you having issues with flair height start from takeoff and get to rotate speed then pull the power back to whatever rpm keeps the nose up but the mains on the ground and have them go the length of the runway like this. It lets them see and feel what it should look like just before touchdown.
 
On the centerline thing. I like to bring up the fact that were kinda backwards from driving. Driving = between the lines. Flying = on the lines. I think I once explained to a student that its like lining up for a really big parking space. and the goal is to be dead center, "Look, there's even a dashed line to help us line up". If the student is just constantly over correcting try to get them to limit the travel of their inputs.
 
I agree a landing is a sight picture. But before anything else it's just flying the airplane. Having trouble with round out and flare? How well can the student transition from a typical approach descent to a level slow flight at altitude? Have you even tried that with them?

Many instructors have gotten hung up on teaching landings, myself included. What I've found is whenever something is troubling me in a landing environment, chances are a little confidence building with the exact same step at a higher altitude can go miles.

-----An experiment-----

In this case I'd suggest setting up at altitude in a normal final approach (attitude, not speed. Don't want them staring inside) and flying to a point in the distance. You watch the altimeter, they don't ever look inside, and you call out for the flare to landing. Get them to focus on keeping the airplane attached to their butt in what feels like one g, what sounds they hear, and what they are feeling on the controls.

Take this all the way to stall and then you take the airplane, recover, talk for a moment about it and repeat. (The reason you take it over here, which seems unorthodox, is that the last thing they experience is what they remember most. Stall recovery isn't the focus, the feel as you flare to stall is. So let that be the last thing they did.)

Your side of the critique is simple: Did they hold heading with the point in the distance? Did they do a relatively ok job at feeling that 1g to keep altitude through the flare? Responses: Make sure you don't lose your reference point so you keep heading. Try it again but pull back a little more/less, you almost held altitude. So this time really pay attention to what the airplane feels like on your butt and do it again.

Repeat 3-4 times and go try a landing. Next lesson do it again (even if the landings were good) to solidify it. Then repeat as needed in future lessons.



PS The height of the flare, imagine you're trying to take a guys hat off with the wheels of your airplane.
 
One thing that works great here in my "little" plane with the newer pilots is a landing attitude demo... The Instructor Pilot will fly a normal approach into the flare, add just a touch of power, and hold the aircraft about 5-10 feet off the deck while maintaining centerline and proper sight picture. Then, we execute a go around with about 3,000 remaining, more than enough for us to still put it down and stop if needed.

Works wonders with getting the young pilots to be able to actually SEE what the landing is supposed to look like, as well as the proper controls to maintain it all the way down the pavement. All they would need to change is taking the power out and the aircraft would just settle onto the runway.

I've never heard of a CFI using it, but I think it would be a great tool to add to the bag of tricks.
 
I don't focus on landings too much until I have gone over stalls and slow flight. I seem to find the better a student can handle the maneuvers, especially slow flight the easier approaches and better control he/she has during the flare. Each student is different though, you have to play detective and find out why they are making the mistakes, debriefs are important and helpful to figure it out. I'd agree with flyingbum about the errmygawd here comes the ground thing. That's pretty common it seems. Students <10 are super frustrating but eventually most get it by the mid teens. I have used most of the tricks everyone else says, and I tell my student when you're in the flare try and stay off the runway with no power for as long as you can, don't let the plane touch, and I will say as we flare don't let it touch to the point of annoyance so they are prompted to keep applying back pressure. Ymmv but has worked well for me. One thing I learned from a very seasoned instructor early was to teach go Arounds early as well, so if they don't feel right about the landing or screw up they do a go around, better for their adm skills to be doing go Arounds then having me save them every time. Initially I have to tell them go around if things look like they are going downhill, but eventually they do it themselves. Always Better to try again than try and save a bad landing, and by taking the controls and doing that you're modeling that exact behavior.
With that said "If you like it you can take it, if not you can send it right back"
 
MercFE said:
One thing that works great here in my "little" plane with the newer pilots is a landing attitude demo... The Instructor Pilot will fly a normal approach into the flare, add just a touch of power, and hold the aircraft about 5-10 feet off the deck while maintaining centerline and proper sight picture.
Click to expand...

I do the same thing with my students. I call it "slow flight down the runway".

This gives them a good long look at what the proper flare height should be. A normal flare is just too fast for them to really register, but if you fly down the runway for a full 30 seconds it really clicks.

I also have them watch my eyes as I do this and see that I am looking forward, not down. After they see that I'm not looking down, then I ask them to look down and tell me how high my main wheel is, usually about 3-5 feet.

Then I have them do the same maneuver with me on the throttle. Once they are stable at the flare height, I pull the power and they touch down.
 
I think when I first started teaching, I was in the pattern way too early. Now I won't even talk about the pattern until all the pre-solo maneuvers (maybe sans emergencies) are second nature (between 10 and 20 hours depending on the student and how often they fly). I have really found that students will progress in landings much faster once they are comfortable with these other skills. I definitely second the low approach training. I really make sure they are using their peripheral vision on the low approaches to judge altitude (use the side stripes if you're not on too wide of a runway) These tactics have cut about 10 hours out of my pre-solo training.
 
Make sure they can see out the front, over the nose. Guys won't want to sit on a pillow, bring it and make them use it. Newer cessnas have height adjustments, crank it up.
Don't teach them to land. Teach them to fly down the runway a foot obove the ground. If they hold the pitch attitude the landing will follow.
If they can't 'get' it go to a uncontrolled field that has a long runway and have them wheely down the runway. Don't take off and taxi back (you control the power).
 
Everyone has a tendency to want to look toward what you're going toward, which is of course the runway. I have seen students from primary all the way to MEI add-on fly a perfect approach except touch down with sideload that they didn't ever see coming, because it didn't register with them that looking down the runway their head was turned slightly. To put the airplane on centerline, use the ailerons to make the centerline stand straight up and down because if it's leaning in your sight picture then you are off, and then lock your head square to your shoulders, with your shoulders locked squared to your seat, and use the rudder to put the runway directly in front of you in your sight picture.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Teaching landings? Don't take off!

Before taxiing onto the runway, in a tricycle gear airplane set the flaps to match the downward aileron deflection (usually what ever the short field setting if flaps are recommended) Next, set the elevator trim to where it would normally be for landing. Taxi onto the runway with full aft elevator (like a soft-field take off) Line up on the center line then apply just enough power to get the nose wheel off the ground. During the high speed taxi, maintain centerline using the rudder and maintain the attitude with elevator and power adjustments. Keep the main's on and just wheelie down the runway.

This exercise accomplishes many things at once. 1)Direction control with the rudder 2)How to maintain a landing attitude as airspeed diminishes 3)Sight picture of the landing attitude 4)Using peripheral vision to maintain centerline 5)Hand-Foot-Eye coordination 6)More smooth and precise elevator & power inputs. Finally, it teaches and eventually eliminates the tendency to land flat and porpoise by emphasizing positive elevator control from touchdown to roll out.

This exercise should be briefed and demonstrated before expecting the student to do it on their own.
 
word302 said:
I think when I first started teaching, I was in the pattern way too early. Now I won't even talk about the pattern until all the pre-solo maneuvers (maybe sans emergencies) are second nature (between 10 and 20 hours depending on the student and how often they fly). I have really found that students will progress in landings much faster once they are comfortable with these other skills. I definitely second the low approach training. I really make sure they are using their peripheral vision on the low approaches to judge altitude (use the side stripes if you're not on too wide of a runway) These tactics have cut about 10 hours out of my pre-solo training.
Click to expand...

This. Lesson 18 is my first landing lesson and it occurs about 15-20 hours into training. I attached the table of contents, I wonder word302, do you follow a similar macro format?

I also strongly agree on the flare demo. I take it a step farther though, in lesson 16 I teach my students to perform it. Usually they end up with a few smooth touch downs by accident before they get the maneuver right. Plus they get into a go around habit: wheels touch or out of runway, go around.
 

Attachments

JordanD said:
I feel like I'm not teaching landings very well.
Click to expand...

If there were a way to learn landings in a handful of lessons, there would be no need for CFIs. The reality is - no matter how experienced you are, it still takes students 100+ landings to "get it" on average, and often much, much longer.

Landings, early on, are also a time where you should be demonstrating frequently. Students don't learn much from making the same mistake, again and again. Do the first landing of the lesson, have them critique it all the way around the pattern. Then they do one, and you critique. Rinse, wash, repeat. If for no other reason than wanting to fly more themselves, they'll eventually start doing better.

We all have a tendency to want students with their hands on the controls as much as possible. But you do need to demonstrate the "right" way a few times first.

Agree with all of the advice given above - in particular the low-pass fly in ground effect - long runway exercise. My CFI did that with me 15 years ago, still remember it, still use the technique.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
...Line up on the center line then apply just enough power to get the nose wheel off the ground. During the high speed taxi, maintain centerline using the rudder and maintain the attitude with elevator and power adjustments. Keep the main's on and just wheelie down the runway.
Click to expand...

I do the same and students always remark that this really helps them mentally quite a bit. As others have mentioned, one problem with the flare is you spend only a few seconds in that flight realm during a normal landing, so it's hard for them to get a feel for what's right/wrong and learn from experience. Doing the nose high taxi runs puts them in that realm for up to a minute.

Also, something my instructor did ~18 years ago was have me practice multiple landings on each trip around the pattern. Land just after the numbers, go around but only to 5' then land again, and again, and again. In a typical light trainer you can get several landings in on a 5,000' runway. Brian Landsberg actually just blogged about this a few days ago: http://tailwheelersjournal.com/2013/multiple-landings-or-keep-your-nose-down/
 
drunkenbeagle said:
If there were a way to learn landings in a handful of lessons, there would be no need for CFIs. The reality is - no matter how experienced you are, it still takes students 100+ landings to "get it" on average, and often much, much longer.

Landings, early on, are also a time where you should be demonstrating frequently. Students don't learn much from making the same mistake, again and again. Do the first landing of the lesson, have them critique it all the way around the pattern. Then they do one, and you critique. Rinse, wash, repeat. If for no other reason than wanting to fly more themselves, they'll eventually start doing better.

We all have a tendency to want students with their hands on the controls as much as possible. But you do need to demonstrate the "right" way a few times first.

Agree with all of the advice given above - in particular the low-pass fly in ground effect - long runway exercise. My CFI did that with me 15 years ago, still remember it, still use the technique.
Click to expand...
For sure. It took me forever to learn how to land, and naturally I still screw them up from time to time, especially when I'm trying to give them an example.

I'm in the same boat, I don't teach them landings until they get all the maneuvers down. No point learning to land if they can't do basic aircraft control. Same with short field soft field takeoffs, never until they get really good at normal takeoffs.
 
JordanD said:
For sure. It took me forever to learn how to land, and naturally I still screw them up from time to time, especially when I'm trying to give them an example.

I'm in the same boat, I don't teach them landings until they get all the maneuvers down. No point learning to land if they can't do basic aircraft control. Same with short field soft field takeoffs, never until they get really good at normal takeoffs.
Click to expand...

Yeah I don't even bother with short and soft takeoffs and landings until after they solo. It's not a pre-solo requirement, but a cross country solo requirement. Looks like a lot of great advice here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top