Teaching landing tips?
- Thread starter av8or91
- Start date
beechpilot84
Well-Known Member
*Level off 10 feet high and have them fly down the length of the runway
*Make sure they are looking down the runway during flare
* Make sure they have a consistent seat height. The higher the seat the better especially in planes like a 172.
*Explain how during the flare the goal is to transition into slow flight and that landing flat means they are landing at too high an airspeed.
* I sometimes put my hand up in the windscreen for direction. I talk with my hand motioning them to level off and when to slowly start pulling as we get slower and slower. That way as they are looking down the runway they can also see your hand motions.
*Be patient, the landing flare is one of the hardest things for students to "get"
*Make sure they are looking down the runway during flare
* Make sure they have a consistent seat height. The higher the seat the better especially in planes like a 172.
*Explain how during the flare the goal is to transition into slow flight and that landing flat means they are landing at too high an airspeed.
* I sometimes put my hand up in the windscreen for direction. I talk with my hand motioning them to level off and when to slowly start pulling as we get slower and slower. That way as they are looking down the runway they can also see your hand motions.
*Be patient, the landing flare is one of the hardest things for students to "get"
fisher37
Well-Known Member
I'm no CFI, but I'll give you a tip that helped me out a lot during my private license...I was having a lot of trouble with my landings, finally my CFI told me to get as close to the runway as I could without touching it with the mains..basically a really low approach..after I did that it just started clicking..and I haven't really had trouble since then. Just try the low approach method, it could help!
EDIT..I should have read all the posts before posting, sorry!
EDIT..I should have read all the posts before posting, sorry!
muffinman
Well-Known Member
I have a student that I am convinced is looking at the edge of the cowling.
He consistently has the noise pointed to the left during round out.
I ask him what he is looking at and he says down the runway at the trees.. but every time the noise is pointed left and I wait till the last minute to kick the rudder for him.
I'm sure its something that I'm doing wrong in telling him what to do.. I just have not figured it out yet
He consistently has the noise pointed to the left during round out.
I ask him what he is looking at and he says down the runway at the trees.. but every time the noise is pointed left and I wait till the last minute to kick the rudder for him.
I'm sure its something that I'm doing wrong in telling him what to do.. I just have not figured it out yet
Cessna414JJB
Unknown Member
Had the same problem with students in Europe. We ended up putting a line of tape (regular 3M black or red tape) in straight line from the beginning to the front edge of the cowling. Helped a lot for them to actually look straight...
I told this in another thread.
I had a guy that was landing (if you can call it that) pretty ugly every time in. It looked to me as if he was flying the airplane to a height of around five to ten feet above the runway and just letting it fall in. Needless to say, he was bouncing all the way down the strip. I had seen enough!
I knew that he had some really nice model planes at his house, so I asked him to bring one down to the airstrip and let me have a look. Real proudly he brought it in and I showed him (with the model) how I wanted him to land. Real nice greaser. Then i raised the model up off of the table a few feet and just dropped it onto the table. He like'd to had a kiniption.
He said, " What are you doing? That model cost a lot of money!!!" and I said "Yep, and that is exactly how you are landing my plane and it cost a lot of money!!!"
He really did good after that.
I had a guy that was landing (if you can call it that) pretty ugly every time in. It looked to me as if he was flying the airplane to a height of around five to ten feet above the runway and just letting it fall in. Needless to say, he was bouncing all the way down the strip. I had seen enough!
I knew that he had some really nice model planes at his house, so I asked him to bring one down to the airstrip and let me have a look. Real proudly he brought it in and I showed him (with the model) how I wanted him to land. Real nice greaser. Then i raised the model up off of the table a few feet and just dropped it onto the table. He like'd to had a kiniption.
He said, " What are you doing? That model cost a lot of money!!!" and I said "Yep, and that is exactly how you are landing my plane and it cost a lot of money!!!"He really did good after that.
contactground.9
Banned
So, I've been reading this thread and thinking about all the tips because my landings never have been entirely to my satisfaction.
Anyway, it has been a huge help! I flew yesterday for the first time since I got my PPL in Feb, and I greased 3/4 landings!... All I was thinking about once I was set up was hot lava (just because it is memorable) and to fly it all the way down. it was perfect!... I had a huge grin on my face and I was all alone for most of them lol
Thanks everyone!
Anyway, it has been a huge help! I flew yesterday for the first time since I got my PPL in Feb, and I greased 3/4 landings!... All I was thinking about once I was set up was hot lava (just because it is memorable) and to fly it all the way down. it was perfect!... I had a huge grin on my face and I was all alone for most of them lol
Thanks everyone!
tjvpa28
Well-Known Member
I have a student who had a lot of trouble landing. He was at 40 hours and no solo in sight. I took him out and had him teach ME while I flew. I did nothing (pitch, power, flaps, descent, flare, nothing) until he told me to do so. We did that one time in the pattern, after which he made 6 beautiful consecutive landings and soloed the next day. When they have to teach you it makes them start thinking about what's going on.
R
Roger, Roger
Guest
Like others said, put the airplane over center during taxi and have him look STRAIGHT ahead to work on the picture of straight. People like to look over the spinner, because that is the middle of the airplane. In so doing they line up the spinner (from their perspective) with the centerline, resulting in a crooked left landing. You and I know that they need to look straight in front of them. If you are flying 172s, the row of rivets down the cowling can be a good reference.
imatworkallday
Well-Known Member
I told this in another thread.
I had a guy that was landing (if you can call it that) pretty ugly every time in. It looked to me as if he was flying the airplane to a height of around five to ten feet above the runway and just letting it fall in. Needless to say, he was bouncing all the way down the strip. I had seen enough!
I knew that he had some really nice model planes at his house, so I asked him to bring one down to the airstrip and let me have a look. Real proudly he brought it in and I showed him (with the model) how I wanted him to land. Real nice greaser. Then i raised the model up off of the table a few feet and just dropped it onto the table. He like'd to had a kiniption.
He really did good after that.
:laff: Nicely played...I like the use of kiniption. That word doesnt get used often enough now a days.
fish314
Well-Known Member
91-3A
Well-Known Member
I know that you are asking about the round-out/level-off/flare/touchdown, but I am going to step you through my entire landing instruction for anyone else out there who has questions.
Teaching a good landing is tricky. In some ways, it is the same sequence but opposite of teaching takeoffs - while accelerating during t/o I tell them to gently bring the cowling up to the end of the r-way and hold it there. They have to add rudder as they bring the nose up to counteract P-factor to keep the nose straight down the runway. As they gain airspeed, the plane gently lifts off instead of being jerked into the sky.
I teach that there are three separate parts to the landing sequence - the descent, the level-off, and the flare. They all have visual cues to look for. The descent is from the base turn to over the runway and is used to establish stability and maintain alignment. A stable descent with the proper wind correction on final is critical for your student to maintain their site picture more easily. On short final they should be constantly switching between the airspeed ind and the touchdown spot (or just in front of it), but when they get to the last 50 ft or so they need to transition to being completely outside. At that point they should just hold their pitch attitude constant and be switching between looking at the touchdown spot and the end of the runway. As they come across the threshold, they need to transition again to just looking at the end of the runway. When the end of the runway goes flat, you slowly begin the level off. By "runway goes flat" I mean that the horizon and the end of the runway meet. It is the point at which you can no longer truly see the end, it is just another part of the horizon. If you wait until this point, the plane will typically end up around 5 feet off the deck.
When you begin the level off, you will simply adopt a level pitch attitude and slowly bring the power out to idle. This phase is to dissipate forward speed while maintaining alignment with the r-way. As your speed begins to dissipate, the plane will begin to sink. As you begin to sink, your site picture will change. If you maintain the same pitch attitude, you will begin to see more horizon above your cowling. This is the visual cue to let you know to begin the flare.
When I start to flare, this is the point where I am telling my student to not let the airplane land. In the flare, just like the t/o, I have the student gently bring the nose up to the horizon and hold it there. As the plane slows they will need to slowly increase their back pressure to maintain the cowling on the horizon. During the flare, they need to pay attention to the site picture for runway alignment. Make sure they use some spot on the cowling in reference to the runway to determine whether they need to put more rudder in.
(This is, of course, assuming the winds are coming straight down the runway and no wing-low method is necessary.)
When the student puts all three parts together smoothly and consistently, they will have a gentle and controlled landing with no side-loading.
Like I said, that was a bit in-depth for your original question but I'd rather cover the entire sequence so that others might glean a little information as well.
That's my two cents and it has seemed to work for me with my international students who I sometimes worry about when I see the box checked yes under sec G on the 8710...good luck :rawk::bandit:
Teaching a good landing is tricky. In some ways, it is the same sequence but opposite of teaching takeoffs - while accelerating during t/o I tell them to gently bring the cowling up to the end of the r-way and hold it there. They have to add rudder as they bring the nose up to counteract P-factor to keep the nose straight down the runway. As they gain airspeed, the plane gently lifts off instead of being jerked into the sky.
I teach that there are three separate parts to the landing sequence - the descent, the level-off, and the flare. They all have visual cues to look for. The descent is from the base turn to over the runway and is used to establish stability and maintain alignment. A stable descent with the proper wind correction on final is critical for your student to maintain their site picture more easily. On short final they should be constantly switching between the airspeed ind and the touchdown spot (or just in front of it), but when they get to the last 50 ft or so they need to transition to being completely outside. At that point they should just hold their pitch attitude constant and be switching between looking at the touchdown spot and the end of the runway. As they come across the threshold, they need to transition again to just looking at the end of the runway. When the end of the runway goes flat, you slowly begin the level off. By "runway goes flat" I mean that the horizon and the end of the runway meet. It is the point at which you can no longer truly see the end, it is just another part of the horizon. If you wait until this point, the plane will typically end up around 5 feet off the deck.
When you begin the level off, you will simply adopt a level pitch attitude and slowly bring the power out to idle. This phase is to dissipate forward speed while maintaining alignment with the r-way. As your speed begins to dissipate, the plane will begin to sink. As you begin to sink, your site picture will change. If you maintain the same pitch attitude, you will begin to see more horizon above your cowling. This is the visual cue to let you know to begin the flare.
When I start to flare, this is the point where I am telling my student to not let the airplane land. In the flare, just like the t/o, I have the student gently bring the nose up to the horizon and hold it there. As the plane slows they will need to slowly increase their back pressure to maintain the cowling on the horizon. During the flare, they need to pay attention to the site picture for runway alignment. Make sure they use some spot on the cowling in reference to the runway to determine whether they need to put more rudder in.
(This is, of course, assuming the winds are coming straight down the runway and no wing-low method is necessary.)
When the student puts all three parts together smoothly and consistently, they will have a gentle and controlled landing with no side-loading.
Like I said, that was a bit in-depth for your original question but I'd rather cover the entire sequence so that others might glean a little information as well.
That's my two cents and it has seemed to work for me with my international students who I sometimes worry about when I see the box checked yes under sec G on the 8710...good luck :rawk::bandit:
I personally have learned to come in at or slightly above short final speed and come at a shallow angle and upon reaching the runway gradually maintaining slight decent while increasing back pressure. (usually 50fpm decent) Once i enter ground effect my throttles are at idle.
If you really want to get the point across, tell them to play the game of keep it off the runway. Upon reaching ground effect, throttles to idle and maintain a low altitude over the runway until it finally comes down. Those cessnas do like to float though so it could be a long flare.
If you really want to get the point across, tell them to play the game of keep it off the runway. Upon reaching ground effect, throttles to idle and maintain a low altitude over the runway until it finally comes down. Those cessnas do like to float though so it could be a long flare.
First I will say as far as the landing goes 91-3A gave a very nice description of how to set this up. I would also like to note that I have found developing a standardized pattern for you students so that their pattern is routine helps with the level off and flare. This is likely because the student will be less worked up from the lap around the pattern when he/she gets to the round out and flare.
Some other tips I did not see here that I believe are crucial to helping you with your problem. The first of which is you should spend no more than 30-45 minutes (5-7 landings) on any landing practice day. I direct your attention to the FAA saying that practicing a manuever more than 3-5 times will tend to have a negative effect on learning. If you study books on education you find that this is because the student becomes increasingly frusterated and will focus on the one thing they are doing wrong forgetting everything else. The fact that you did 37 landings with one student, no offense, if I was your student I would have jumped out of the plane or crashed us into the ground out of frustration.
The second tip requires the reading of almost any primary training book where you will find that nearly every author will state that the key to a good landing is a thorough understanding of the aircraft and what each control does. That being said I recommend sitting down with both of those students and explaining to them what each control does and why. Make sure to emphasise things like, the rudder is NOT a turning device and is there only to correct the design flaws of the aircraft (adverse yaw and such), the elevator is NOT used to gain altitude but is a direct control of the aircrafts angle of attack, and go over all the basics of coordinated turns and climbs and descents again. Next go out on another lesson focused on just power off stalls (simulated landing flying a power off approach to a predetermined altitude, leveling off, and flaring till stall) and slow flight emphasising the use of the controls in slow flight.
Remember this above all, "if the student's mastery of the fundamentals of flight is firm enough, his landings will click almost at first try and will require amazingly little practice." Page 188 of Stick and Rudder by Wolfgang Langewiesche.
P.S. Sorry was in a rush so I didn't spell check this hopefully it is understandable.
Some other tips I did not see here that I believe are crucial to helping you with your problem. The first of which is you should spend no more than 30-45 minutes (5-7 landings) on any landing practice day. I direct your attention to the FAA saying that practicing a manuever more than 3-5 times will tend to have a negative effect on learning. If you study books on education you find that this is because the student becomes increasingly frusterated and will focus on the one thing they are doing wrong forgetting everything else. The fact that you did 37 landings with one student, no offense, if I was your student I would have jumped out of the plane or crashed us into the ground out of frustration.
The second tip requires the reading of almost any primary training book where you will find that nearly every author will state that the key to a good landing is a thorough understanding of the aircraft and what each control does. That being said I recommend sitting down with both of those students and explaining to them what each control does and why. Make sure to emphasise things like, the rudder is NOT a turning device and is there only to correct the design flaws of the aircraft (adverse yaw and such), the elevator is NOT used to gain altitude but is a direct control of the aircrafts angle of attack, and go over all the basics of coordinated turns and climbs and descents again. Next go out on another lesson focused on just power off stalls (simulated landing flying a power off approach to a predetermined altitude, leveling off, and flaring till stall) and slow flight emphasising the use of the controls in slow flight.
Remember this above all, "if the student's mastery of the fundamentals of flight is firm enough, his landings will click almost at first try and will require amazingly little practice." Page 188 of Stick and Rudder by Wolfgang Langewiesche.
P.S. Sorry was in a rush so I didn't spell check this hopefully it is understandable.