Teaching Holds

[African_Swallow]

Guys, let me know how you teach parallel entry. I heard something I thought was strange this weekend, and want to make sure I'm not going nutty. If it's one of those things that I was taught "just because every CFI before me taught it that way", then I plan to make some changes in the way I teach it so we don't pass along bad info. Here it goes...

Entering a parallel entry to a hold (assume a VOR), I do the following, in brief:

1) proceed to holding fix
2) after passing fix, (TTTTTT: Turn, Time, Twist, Throttle, Talk, Track - do what applies) to follow the inbound course OUTbound for 1 minute (thereabout, depending on winds)
3) turn toward protected side, and REINTERCEPT the INbound course to the VOR
4) after crossing the VOR this time (TTTTTT), continue to told: i.e., triple correction angle for outbound leg, time where necessary to measure legs, etc.

Here's the thing I thought was weird with this guy I saw this weekend. Someone taught him on step 3 above to proceed directly to the VOR and not to reintercept the inbound course. I told him that was not good practice because you cannot have any idea of what the wind correction will be on the outbound leg unless you intercept and track the correct inbound course.

Does anyone do it this way with good reason? I'm always open to see what reasons there might be for methods other than what I currently teach. That might end up being one of the things I learn today...

Thanks!

 

[fish314]

It is a perfectly legal technique, but not one that I use. I prefer to intercept the radial inbound to the station as well, not as much for that reason but because on a hold that is not over a station but over a radial/DME fix it is difficult to fly directly to the fix. Guys generally have a much easier time intercepting the radial back to the fix, instead. In my instructional experience I haven't found that many students who will catch the wind drift on the first orbit around the pattern, but that's another great reason to use your technique.

 

[jhugz]

I agree I teach it the way you do, but then again I teach people to fly a radial on a teardrop entry when holding over a VOR. It's been a while but if I remember correctly you only have .5 nm on the non-protected side of the hold. I wish I could find that picture.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Reach the fix.

Turn outbound.

 

[JLF]

Reach the fix. Turn outbound.

I start my ground lesson by saying this just to simplify the concept, but then build up to the above methods of flying the hold.

Whatever will work best for the student will be fine, but I will show them my technique.


For a parallel entry I cross the fix, turn outbound, intercept the inbound course headed outbound, get my correction right there, then turn towards the protected side and intercept the inbound leg.

To me this gets all the setup/prep work done ahead of time. From here it is 99 bottles of beer on the wall for a couple of turns, then put the plan together for what's next.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Here's the thing I thought was weird with this guy I saw this weekend. Someone taught him on step 3 above to proceed directly to the VOR and not to reintercept the inbound course.

If you look at the AIM-recommended entries, you'll see that not intercepting the outbound is what is depicted. But I suspect that most CFIIs probably teach the interception technique for exactly the reason you say.

 

[minitour]

Reach the fix.

Turn outbound.

Yep. Cross the fix and turn outbound.

-mini

 

[Mike H]

Heck, I consider myself lucky if I can intercept the inbound course by the time I get to the VOR and have to start the outbound turn

 

[African_Swallow]

If you look at the AIM-recommended entries, you'll see that not intercepting the outbound is what is depicted. But I suspect that most CFIIs probably teach the interception technique for exactly the reason you say.

I should clarify: someone taught him to cross the fix, turn outbound for a minute, turn toward the protected side and then to go directly to the VOR without tracking the radial inbound. This is what I've never heard anyone do or teach. I'm just wondering if there's any good reason for doing it that way, if anyone even does that.

 

[JLF]

Yep. Cross the fix and turn outbound.

-mini

We get it, but there is more to flying a hold than that... The student already knows what entry they're going to do. mini, do you go direct to the navaid once you've turned around, or do you intercept the inbound radial? I'm gonna guess you go direct back to the fix. (presumptuous I know)

I should clarify:

Your good, I think everyone is trackin'. I wasn't taught this method, and don't plan on teaching it, but it is one of the recommendations in the AIM.

Ok, a little overkill, but whatever... From the AIM

(a) Parallel Procedure. When approaching the holding fix from anywhere in sector (a), the parallel entry procedure would be to turn to a heading to parallel the holding course outbound on the nonholding side for one minute, turn in the direction of the holding pattern through more than 180 degrees, and return to the holding fix or intercept the holding course inbound.

This is a separate question all together, but does anyone here have reservations about paralleling the inbound course on the nonholding (non-protected) side? I track the actual radial outbound so I can get a feel for the wind before getting established anyway, but I've never been keen on flying around out in space on the nonholding side.

 

[subpilot]

Ok, a little overkill, but whatever... From the AIM

(a) Parallel Procedure. When approaching the holding fix from anywhere in sector (a), the parallel entry procedure would be to turn to a heading to parallel the holding course outbound on the nonholding side for one minute, turn in the direction of the holding pattern through more than 180 degrees, and return to the holding fix or intercept the holding course inbound.

This is a separate question all together, but does anyone here have reservations about paralleling the inbound course on the nonholding (non-protected) side? I track the actual radial outbound so I can get a feel for the wind before getting established anyway, but I've never been keen on flying around out in space on the nonholding side.

You are not going to be that far off the radial if you turn to parallel right after crossing and there is some amount of protection on either side of the holding radial to allow for this (and just normal deviations). Now the protected side is going to have a ton more protected airspace but this does not mean that the non-protected side is going to be 0.4 DME from a mountain ridge. I know someone here will quote TERPS for the exact numbers very soon to hopefully support this.

 

[minitour]

We get it, but there is more to flying a hold than that...

Not really. Go to the fix, turn outbound, stay in the protected airspace and know where you are. Aside from that, all of the fancy patterns are just muckity-muck. Not much more to a hold than crossing a fix, turning outbound and staying on the protected side. You could do steep turns over the fix for an hour while you hold if ya like.

mini, do you go direct to the navaid once you've turned around, or do you intercept the inbound radial? I'm gonna guess you go direct back to the fix. (presumptuous I know)

You presume too much. I attempt to re-join the course back to the fix (normally it ends up pretty close to direct back to the fix without being directly back to the fix), unless I'm holding over an NDB (that isn't an LOM). Then I'll go directly back to the NDB, turn outbound and figure out what I'm doing from there.

In the end, no one cares. Cross the fix, turn outbound and stay in the protected airspace. Obviously, you need to know where you are at all times. K.I.S.S.

-mini

 

[JLF]

K.I.S.S.-mini

I'm a firm believer for sure. Just trying to get an idea what some of you more experienced types do.


I hear you subpilot.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I should clarify: someone taught him to cross the fix, turn outbound for a minute, turn toward the protected side and then to go directly to the VOR without tracking the radial inbound. This is what I've never heard anyone do or teach. I'm just wondering if there's any good reason for doing it that way, if anyone even does that.

It's probably easier to go directly to the fix rather than intercept if it's an NDB.

It probably doesn't make much difference if it's a VOR.

But, with an intersection (without RNAV) if you don't intercept the inbound, unless the winds are =very= favorable, there is an excellent chance you'lll never get to the intersection itself. Consider for example the missed approach hold ILS at KBJC - if you parallel enter at ALIKE, what would you need to do to get back to it after turning inbound if you don't attempt to intercept?

It's that last reason that I think intercepting the inbound is the better technique. It's also why I prefer a teardrop to a parallel when a teardrop is reasonable.

 

[African_Swallow]

In the end, no one cares. Cross the fix, turn outbound and stay in the protected airspace. Obviously, you need to know where you are at all times. K.I.S.S.

-mini

Agreed...for "real-world" flying (and I make this distinction to the students that can tell the difference). But on checkrides I know our examiners WILL care

-A.S.

 

[minitour]

Agreed...for "real-world" flying (and I make this distinction to the students that can tell the difference). But on checkrides I know our examiners WILL care

-A.S.

All they should care about is PTS tolerances.

From the Instrument Rating PTS.

III. Area of Operation: Air Traffic Control Clearances and Procedures
C. Holding Procedures
---
3. Explains and uses an entry procedure that ensures the aircraft remains within the holding pattern airspace for a standard, nonstandard, published, or nonpublished holding pattern.

Emphasis mine.

Note no mention of "proper" entry or "recommended" entry. Just an entry procedure that keeps you in the proper airspace.

If I had a student bust and on the slip the DPE wrote "did not use proper teardrop entry procedure" I'd be pretty livid. Know your PTS.

-mini

 

[tgrayson]

does not mean that the non-protected side is going to be 0.4 DME from a mountain ridge. I know someone here will quote TERPS for the exact numbers very soon to hopefully support this.

 

[subpilot]

Thanks, Tgrayson

I never knew the dimensions before and I am suprised how little difference there is between the two sides.

 

[ppragman]

I like a parallel entry for everything. Hit the fix, turn outbound, turn on the holding side until you're going to intercept the inbound radial at 30 degrees-ish, then roll into a normal hold.

 

[deadringer86]

This was a question on my II ride. Examiner asked if you needed to reintercept the inbound course when turning back towards the fix following a parallel entry. I said I would teach to reintercept the inbound course, and he basically told me that wasn't necessary at all. According to him, after you make the turn, just go direct to the fix. No need to reintercept the course.