Teaching emergencies

What I was concerned about when I got this on my CFI checkride was this:

1.) Low altitude (under 3k, can't remember exactly now), with no particularly great landing areas, and none planned ahead of time...he just pulled it (the mixture) after I pulled the power to idle to begin the maneuver. But mainly...

2.) The fact that he was touting this as "a good way to simulate an engine failure," when your students don't expect it (his exact words). Now what if I did it to my students, who in turn did it to theirs, who remembered it when they became CFI's....you can see where I'm going with this.

So as to whether it's a good demonstration or not, I guess it could be argued both ways. I personally wouldn't do it in a single. I just don't see the need, or think that the benefits outweigh the risks...even though they may not be as high as some believe. Just my $.02.
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I'll put in my $.02 on the matter too I guess...

I've never had it done to me, and I haven't ever done it to a student, and I don't think I ever will.

BUT... Some of the things USMC Mech was listing about how it looks, I didn't know. So I could see how it being done at a safe altitude would be a good expirience.

Maybe it would be useful just to show what it would look like if an engine failure happened, and that the airplane still flys wityhout the engine producing power.

I do not think it should be used as a way to do a simulated engine failure.

You are taking a risk if you do choose to do it, but I don't think it's any more risk than if you pulled the throttle (like if you never clear the engine or forget to add carb heat, or the throttle itself falls out).

Just my thoughts
 
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What I was concerned about when I got this on my CFI checkride was this:

1.) Low altitude (under 3k, can't remember exactly now), with no particularly great landing areas, and none planned ahead of time...he just pulled it (the mixture) after I pulled the power to idle to begin the maneuver. But mainly...

2.) The fact that he was touting this as "a good way to simulate an engine failure," when your students don't expect it (his exact words). Now what if I did it to my students, who in turn did it to theirs, who remembered it when they became CFI's....you can see where I'm going with this.

So as to whether it's a good demonstration or not, I guess it could be argued both ways. I personally wouldn't do it in a single. I just don't see the need, or think that the benefits outweigh the risks...even though they may not be as high as some believe. Just my $.02.
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Doing this at low altitude is just plain stupid.
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This demonstration shouldn't be a Gotcha moment, it should be a breifed part of the lesson.

I think it is similar to demonstrating spins. The student probably won't ever do them again, but they need to be demonstrated.
 
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You are taking a risk if you do choose to do it, but I don't think it's any more risk than if you pulled the throttle (like if you never clear the engine or forget to add carb heat, or the throttle itself falls out).

Just my thoughts

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Did you guys ever stop to think that even if the engine doesn't restart, that if you've (like you should've) picked a useable landing spot, that you should have no trouble making a simulated forced-landing into a real one?
 
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What I was concerned about when I got this on my CFI checkride was this:

1.) Low altitude (under 3k, can't remember exactly now), with no particularly great landing areas, and none planned ahead of time...he just pulled it (the mixture) after I pulled the power to idle to begin the maneuver. But mainly...

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In a single, you should always be noting useful landing areas, hence they should always be "planned ahead".

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2.) The fact that he was touting this as "a good way to simulate an engine failure," when your students don't expect it (his exact words). Now what if I did it to my students, who in turn did it to theirs, who remembered it when they became CFI's....you can see where I'm going with this.

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When will a pilot ever expect an engine failure? I wouldn't think it's great training (following initial training of performing forced landings) to only do things a student expects. I mean, initially a stud will be trained in the maneuver under controlled conditions. Later in training, giving it unexpectedly in order to getting him thinking on the fly, is necessary.

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So as to whether it's a good demonstration or not, I guess it could be argued both ways. I personally wouldn't do it in a single. I just don't see the need, or think that the benefits outweigh the risks...even though they may not be as high as some believe. Just my $.02.
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It all depends, I guess.
 
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Did you guys ever stop to think that even if the engine doesn't restart, that if you've (like you should've) picked a useable landing spot, that you should have no trouble making a simulated forced-landing into a real one?

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If you as a CFI aren't completely confident of your ability to do a real dead stick landing, you need to do one of two things.

1: Pratice more (a lot more)

or

2: Turn in your CFI cert




Harsh I know.

I am so rusty right now I don't feel comfortable flying untill I get some serious refresher training, and then I will do a good bit of pratice before I feel confident to teach.
 
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You are taking a risk if you do choose to do it, but I don't think it's any more risk than if you pulled the throttle (like if you never clear the engine or forget to add carb heat, or the throttle itself falls out).

Just my thoughts

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Did you guys ever stop to think that even if the engine doesn't restart, that if you've (like you should've) picked a useable landing spot, that you should have no trouble making a simulated forced-landing into a real one?

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That's exactly my point. I don't think that pulling the mixture, already having a landing spot in mind and able to get there, would be any more risky than pulling the throttle when you've already got a place picked out to land in case the engine doesn't come back when the throttle is put back in.

Just make sure you are planning and I agree with only doing the mixture pull up high.

Like I said, I've never done it, but I can certainly see the value of actually seeing it.
 
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When will a pilot ever expect an engine failure?

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By "when they least expect it," he meant when they were manipulating the power. I should've been more clear, sorry.

I'm completely comfortable dead-sticking a landing.

I'm not completely comfortable relying on power to be restored after pulling the mixture to idle-cutoff in flight. I just don't understand the point, I guess. "To see what it looks like," isn't a good enough reason for me to put myself, my student, and my certificates at risk. If that makes me a bad CFI, then I'm guilty as charged.
 
I agree with the original post here. I pull the mixture, generally at altitude, but not always, for my students. I got tired of seeing students or even rated pilots lean the mixture out til it got rough, then be in a race to push it back in, cause they were scared to lean it too much/kill the engine. It's actually kinda fun with some of those type guys, pull the mixture and watch them sweat it out, asking if they can put the mixture back in yet!
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I'm thinking some of you guys saying you'd never in a million years pull the mixture, don't understand exactly how an aircraft engine/ignition system works, or never had this exact thing demo'd to you. 3 things necessary for combustion, and this is basic engine stuff (remember the combustion triangle?)........1) Spark -- Remember, the mags are engine driven. So you've got spark as long as the prop is still turning. 2) Oxygen -- You've got compression and O2 being drawn in, since the prop/crank is still turning. 3) Fuel -- All you do is add the fuel back in, ie: mix back in, and you've got ignition. It's not like you have to crank the thing again to get it started, just add fuel for the spark that's already there, to ignite! Extreme examples aside (the mixture handle coming out of the panel completely), there's really very little risk to pulling the mixture, as long as you keep the prop turning. Yes, granted, it's possible the thing may not fire again for whatever reason, and this is a remote chance............but if this happens, it's not something you caused by pulling the mix, since all you did was take away, then reintroduce gas to the engine. That engine was about to quit anyways.
 
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That is my point!

The prop will not stop.

The guages will not be at Zero.

RPM will not change untill airspeed changes (the governer will try to maintain set RPM)

The MAP will vary with throttle movement (despite the engine producing no power)

Oil pressure will be completely normal. (unless you have sprung a leak)

The amp meter will indicate no change.

Fuel pressure will not change. (unless you have exausted all fuel the pump is still pumping).

Only the sound of the engine will change, and you will not be able to maintain both altitude and airspeed (you'll have to give up one or the other).

These rules apply to either a real failure, or intetional pulling of the mixture control.

Pilots (especially CFIs) need to know this, I found seeing the real thing very informative when I did my training.

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I think an instructor should take these words and include them in the ground brief prior to the emergency flight(you all do believe in ground sessions, right?) To shut down an engine to see what it looks like should wait until the multi training. Why even have the mind set of a 50/50 chance the engine will re-start. Aeronautical decsion making is a special emphises area, and this idea is not good ADM
 
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I'm completely comfortable dead-sticking a landing.

I'm not completely comfortable relying on power to be restored after pulling the mixture to idle-cutoff in flight. I just don't understand the point, I guess. "To see what it looks like," isn't a good enough reason for me to put myself, my student, and my certificates at risk. If that makes me a bad CFI, then I'm guilty as charged.



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Well said!
 
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[ If that makes me a bad CFI, then I'm guilty as charged.



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And now for your sentencing.....
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