Teaching commercial

[FlySooner9]

I have a possible student to teach commercial to, i was wondering what percentage of the training do you think needs to be in a complex aircraft? At OU it was probably 60/40 maybe even 70/30 with more time spent in the Warrior than the Arrow. You guys have any thoughts? Reason i ask is he of course would like to save money by flying something cheaper as much as possible.

 

[Roger, Roger]

How much time-building does he have to do? Unless the flight characteristics are real similar I'd stick with the plane he's checkriding in for the maneuvers (lazy 8s, 8s on, chandelles, etc.) but it's six of one, half dozen of the other for all the time building and cross country (other than the required complex airplane time...isn't there a requirement in there somewhere about solo x-c in a complex or something like that?)

 

[FlySooner9]

he's probably going to need 40-50 hours

 

[Roger, Roger]

I don't have a lot of experience with part 61, but what I'd do is...get his cross countries out of the way, doing the minimum required by part 61 in the Arrow and the rest in the Warrior. Let him continue with time building in the Warrior until he's 10-15 hours from the 250 total, then start working commercial maneuvers and checkride prep in the Arrow.

 

[NOGUFFCHET]

put him in the cheapest plane that you can find and learn the manuevers while building time, then move over to the complex for the last, uh, i think you need ten hours in it right? mine as well take a sweet trip, i wish i had while i was building for my commercial.

have fun!:nana2:

 

[poser765]

They way our 141 syllabus is set up, the student gets the bulk of the time building requirements done in a 150 or 172. One stage in the course is for HP/complex and it's only around 15 hours. After that the student goes and gets the instrument rating and then comes back to the 182 for 10 hours of prep and review for the checkride. So all said and done only about 20 hours in a complex with only 5 or so solo.

I've noticed that it's not all that hard to do a chandelle in a complex airplane if you can do them well in a smaller plane. Also, there is no real point in doing 50+ hours in a more expensive airplane.

Commercial students are pretty easy. You will however get tired of chandellles and lazy 8s. Oh and once they start their cross country phase don't expect to see them much.

 

[FlySooner9]

so according to the FAR's the student only needs 10 hour of solo time in the AOA's including the 300NM cross country but the rest can be dual?

 

[shdw]

I would do all the basic maneuver preparation and some probably half of the cross country time or more in the cheaper aircraft. For the end of his training, the last few cross country rides and cleaning up his manuevers use the complex. I believe it is 10 hours min for complex for the ride, however, I would assume it will take longer for that transition.

During the cross country I would push him heavily by making him do missions since the aircraft he is flying isn't complex you need to up his workload with something. Mission planning and practice is a great way to add workload, maybe bring a fellow CFI along with me to act as a disgruntled passenger or something along those lines.

For the maneuvers, its a visual maneuver! I would teach him to avoid using the instruments at all in the cheaper aircraft and just fly what he thinks is right till he can get each one to happen descently close or within PTS. I might demo a few (I havn't looked at my instruments for a chandelle or lazy 8 in months personally...I just check them at the start and end) showing him where my eyes are one time and another time or two with him just looking out at the horizon to see its orientation.

Then in the complex I would introduce the instruments and using them to cross check. As I posted in another thread, if you stare straight at the horizon, when it looks naturally eye level to your student (your student has been doing it his whole life, the degree diff between sea level and 4000' is 1 degree) then he is level. If he can trim out and learn to trust that in his cheaper aircraft all you will have to do is give him the procedures for the complex and he should pound out all the maneuvers with almost equal proficiency.

Oh and one random tip I discovered with one of my commercial students a couple months back, don't let them use roads, highways, train tracks or any other straight line object to set up for lazy 8's and chandelles. It forces them to look in the wrong direction to see their points. I make them use points in the distance since they can be seen easier. You can even keep your eyes fixed straight off your nose at the horizon without even scanning the entire maneuver and watch your distant points come through the windscreen as you turn.

Good luck with it sir

 

[poser765]

Have to disagree. I don't see the benifit of time building cross countries in a more expensive complex airplane. A complex airplane is going to fly the same as a non complex plane for a majority of the flight so what are they learning?

Commercial requirements aside, 10 hours should be MORE than plenty for a complex endoresment. A few more systems to operate but the plane flys roughly the same.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Have to disagree. I don't see the benifit of time building cross countries in a more expensive complex airplane. A complex airplane is going to fly the same as a non complex plane for a majority of the flight so what are they learning?

Commercial requirements aside, 10 hours should be MORE than plenty for a complex endoresment. A few more systems to operate but the plane flys roughly the same.

I agree. I would do the xc's/time building in the cheapest plane available, then do 10 hours complex/comm. manuevers for the checkride, since he needs the complex time anyways.

 

[JustinA]

:yeahthat:

Spend the last 15 hours in the Arrow doing all of the commercial maneuvers. This will work out perfectly. This is what I did.

 

[shdw]

I agree. I would do the xc's/time building in the cheapest plane available, then do 10 hours complex/comm. maneuvers for the checkride, since he needs the complex time anyways.

I said I didn't think it would be enough for them to transition, some can, others just get lost in the pattern when moving to a complex aircraft. Basically I don't think 10 will be enough for every student, but in 10 hours you can do 1 cross country and the rest maneuvers in a complex. Remember though many complex aircraft have a large speed difference over the cheap aircraft so it isn't as large a gap as it seems.

My thinking is for cross countries using the cheapest high performance aircraft on the line over the cheapest regular aircraft on the line is beneficial and the cost difference is minimal. From there if the student wants to invest more and see more complicated systems they can.

152 = $90/hr | cruise @ 5k abt 105
PA-28 = $114/hr | cruise @ 5k abt 140 | DME
PA-28 (2) = $129/hr | cruise @ 5k abt 140 | 2xGarmin 430/GPS
172RG = $139/hr | cruise @ 5k abt 140 | Garmin 155 IFR/GPS
172RG = $149/hr | cruise @ 5k abt 140 | 2xGarmin 430 GPS/SANDEL

Now lets say a 250 NM cross country for the commercial.

152 = 2.4 hrs cruise + 1 hr = 3.4 * 90 = $306
PA28 = 1.8 hrs cruise + 1 hr = 2.8 * 114 = $319
PA-28 (2) = 1.8 cruise + 1hr = 2.8 * 129 = $361
172RG = 1.8 cruise + 1hr = 2.8 * 139 = $389
172RG (2) = 1.8 cruise + 1hr = 2.8 * 149 = $417

My point is for 13 dollars more your student can fly this flight in a PA28 not to mention in less time which for most people, time is money. The one hour alloted is for time to depature/climb/descend/approach and land.

I just push my students that are at the commercial level, they are going to be working as charters/sightseeing flights or possibly flight instruction so I personally try to prepare them for that. Having your student get in the aircraft take you to another airport to "pretend pick up a 2x pax + you and the cfi" and then taking them out for a photo ride to a near bye location maybe 20 or 30 NM away can be a good real world commercial mission.

He will have to have a weight and balance and find a spot on the map using whatever equipped aircraft he was in. This is a flight I have had working for a local FBO, granted it was 3 pax not 2 w/a cfi simulating, but you get the point. It would help prepare them better in my experience and thats what I want from people that are on my certificate.