Taxi with wind question

Raskolnikov

Raskolnikov

Well-Known Member
I'm teaching an initial CFI student and the subject of how to hold the controls while taxiing came up. Law of primacy, I was taught as a student pilot to "dive away from a quartering tailwind and climb into a quartering headwind". The chief CFI made it very clear we were to hold full elevator up and aileron up into the wind while taxiing in a quartering headwind. However, the AFH and several POH's say for quartering headwind to hold the elevator neutral and full aileron into the wind.

So, who else has heard of or teaches the full-deflection climb into vs holding neutral elevator? What is the advantage of holding neutral elevator vs full back on the yoke? I don't see in the AFH and POH an explanation why neutral is better than full up?
 
In the case of a headwind, you are turning into the wind to raise the upwind aileron to prevent the upwind wing from being lifted by the wind. Up elevator deflection will only serve to lift the nose (of a tricycle geared aircraft), and increase the angle of attack of the wing.
 
If the book (especially the POH) says to do it a certain way, then do it that way end of story. Unless, of course, your chief CFI knows more than the design engineers who wrote the POH....which is seriously doubt.

That being said, if you need to use control input to keep the plane under control when you are taxiing in a wind then you probably shouldn't be flying that day anyways ;)
 
Raskolnikov said:
So, who else has heard of or teaches the full-deflection climb into vs holding neutral elevator? What is the advantage of holding neutral elevator vs full back on the yoke? I don't see in the AFH and POH an explanation why neutral is better than full up?
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For a taildragger its always "Climb into, Dive Away".

For a trike, ailerons do the same thing, but holding aft elevator in a strong headwind can take the weight off the nose wheel making steering difficult or not effective. It can even lift the loose wheel off the ground, causing the airplane to weathervane and the pilot to use directional control during taxi. If you push the yoke forward with a strong quartering tailwind, you can actually tip up on the nose and downwind main and strike the prop. Keep in mind, this is really for VERY light tricycle airplanes. In something like a Arrow, 206, Bonanza or larger light twins you'll still want use aileron deflection, and neutral elevator, but that nose ain't coming up. In those airplanes you might even want to think about keeping the nose wheel light, so you don't stuff the gear. High wing/Low Wing makes a difference too.

In 150/152 with 30kts or so we used to just pull the the yoke all the way aft, and burp the power and wheelie down the taxiway.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
... If you push the yoke forward with a strong quartering tailwind, you can actually tip up on the nose and downwind main and strike the prop. Keep in mind, this is really for VERY light tricycle airplanes. In something like a Arrow, 206, Bonanza or larger light twins you'll still want use aileron deflection, and neutral elevator, but that nose ain't coming up. ...
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I think you probably mis-typed, but just wanted to be sure... In a strong quartering tailwind you should be pushing the yoke forward ("dive away") for the exact reasons you stated.

Also, weight doesn't matter. Crosswind controls should be used regardless of aircraft size. In transport category aircraft, we still use the exact same crosswind controls. The only difference being that we may not unlock the controls until we reach the end of the runway for departure. (The controls for my 43,000 lb. aircraft are locked with the ailerons neutral, and the yoke full forward to prevent a tailwind from causing a problem.)

EDIT: The basic premise here being that airplanes are designed to fly. Crosswind controls prevent that until the pilot is ready to commence flight!
 
Hammertime said:
I think you probably mis-typed, but just wanted to be sure... In a strong quartering tailwind you should be pushing the yoke forward ("dive away") for the exact reasons you stated.
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Yeah, you're right. I meant aft or "up" elevator.

Also, weight doesn't matter. Crosswind controls should be used regardless of aircraft size. In transport category aircraft, we still use the exact same crosswind controls. The only difference being that we may not unlock the controls until we reach the end of the runway for departure. (The controls for my 43,000 lb. aircraft are locked with the ailerons neutral, and the yoke full forward to prevent a tailwind from causing a problem.)

EDIT: The basic premise here being that airplanes are designed to fly. Crosswind controls prevent that until the pilot is ready to commence flight!
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Again, totally right. The pilot should be applying the correct crosswind inputs no matter what they are flying. I think weight does makes a difference. When was the last time you had to chain down a 43,000lb aircraft when you left it overnight?
I was just comparing similar aircraft. Lets say a Scout and a Skywagon. Both have approximately the same surface area exposed to the wind yet both have drastically different characteristics while taxing in a stiff breeze. A Bonanza you can practically sit on your hands until the winds above 25kts. Given similar surface areas, the heavier aircraft will be easier to deal with. With massive vertical stabs and all that fuselage on large aircraft, the problem starts all over again.
 
You're right. I just wanted to make the operational point that crosswind controls should always be used. Just for the purpose of stirring the pot :-) I would counter that CG location and wing loading are probably more related to how the plane "handles" in a crosswind taxi situation than actual weight.
 
ClearedToThe said:
That being said, if you need to use control input to keep the plane under control when you are taxiing in a wind then you probably shouldn't be flying that day anyways ;)
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Eh, glad you are kidding... Most of the light things I fly, you can easily get into trouble with 10-15kts. Especially taildraggers, it is almost like taxiing on one wheel sometimes.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
In 150/152 with 30kts or so we used to just pull the the yoke all the way aft, and burp the power and wheelie down the taxiway.
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Yeah, um, I usually leave out the part where 4HH get's airborne while taxiing too in Santa Anna's. If you don't tell, I won't either. I have a story for beers for you sometime. Man I miss SZP sometimes.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
For a taildragger its always "Climb into, Dive Away".

For a trike, ailerons do the same thing, but holding aft elevator in a strong headwind can take the weight off the nose wheel making steering difficult or not effective. It can even lift the loose wheel off the ground, causing the airplane to weathervane and the pilot to use directional control during taxi. If you push the yoke forward with a strong quartering tailwind, you can actually tip up on the nose and downwind main and strike the prop. Keep in mind, this is really for VERY light tricycle airplanes. In something like a Arrow, 206, Bonanza or larger light twins you'll still want use aileron deflection, and neutral elevator, but that nose ain't coming up. In those airplanes you might even want to think about keeping the nose wheel light, so you don't stuff the gear. High wing/Low Wing makes a difference too.

In 150/152 with 30kts or so we used to just pull the the yoke all the way aft, and burp the power and wheelie down the taxiway.
Click to expand...

I can attest that an aft loaded 206 with a little headwind will lift the nose wheel.

Seriously though, climb into, dive away, you should be able to steer just fine with the reduced nosewheel effectiveness. Source: I spend a lot of time on gravel worrying about eating up props.
 
ppragman said:
I can attest that an aft loaded 206 with a little headwind will lift the nose wheel.

Seriously though, climb into, dive away, you should be able to steer just fine with the reduced nosewheel effectiveness. Source: I spend a lot of time on gravel worrying about eating up props.
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I think a Big 6 needs about 50 knots to lift the nosewheel even tail heavy.
 
ppragman said:
I can attest that an aft loaded 206 with a little headwind will lift the nose wheel.

Seriously though, climb into, dive away, you should be able to steer just fine with the reduced nosewheel effectiveness. Source: I spend a lot of time on gravel worrying about eating up props.
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You're assuming everyone knows what a rudder is for.... :D

Twice I've seen a 172 get tipped up on it's nose while catching a downwind gust. One resulted in a prop strike.
 
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