Taxi in Position and Hold?

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Homewrecker
I thought that the FAA got rid of TIPAH, but on my recent trip they were doing it in Atlanta. Did I miss something?
 
I believe as long as there is a sup. in the tower and have applied to, and recieved special authorization based on need, they can do it.
 
In Japan, they say "Line up and wait". Rolls off the tongue easier, and I'm assuming it's the same clearance. I heard that on a United flight, channel 9.
 
Schinpop said:
In Japan, they say "Line up and wait". Rolls off the tongue easier, and I'm assuming it's the same clearance. I heard that on a United flight, channel 9.
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Yep, "Line up and wait" is the ICAO phraseology, to avoid between "Position and hold" and "Hold short".
 
There has to be a certain controller configuration in the tower between ground controllers and tower controllers as well as a waiver for pulling it out and holding it.
 
Some controllers will skirt the rule and say "start a slooowwww taxi onto XX".... I heard it at my old airport when there was only one guy in the tower (w/ the waiver they needed two controllers on duty in the tower).
 
I had a controller do a major screw up yesterday and almost land someone on top of us while we were TIPH.

It was a very busy day, one runway closed and operations on crossing runways. Apparently tower had cleared someone to land on Rwy 17 prior to us switching freq's, and then cleared us into position and hold. There was one aircraft landing on the crossing runway (8), and then the controller cleared a take-off from that runway as well. He was apparently watching the timing for the take-off from 8 and the landing on 17 and forgot that he had put us onto 17. We had pulled onto 17 and knew that there was a CRJ landing on 8, and we watched him roll out and make the turn off prior to our intersection, and heard ATC clear the other aircraft to takeoff from 8 so we were figuring we'd be on the roll as soon as the departing plane cleared our runway. Just about then a Mooney passes directly overhead, climbing and turning left! The tower yells at the Mooney because he was turning the same direction as the departing traffic off from 8 and asks him what he's doing. The Mooney replies that there was a plane on his runway so he was going around. The tower replies back "that aircraft was going to be well past the intersection before you got to the runway, I CLEARED YOU TO LAND!" The Mooney replied back: "There was an airplane on our runway. He's still there!" The tower got real, real, real quiet. When the tower came back on he had a real shake in his voice as he realized that he had put us in harm's way and then forgot we were there...

Not good.

:(
 
SteveC said:
I had a controller do a major screw up yesterday and almost land someone on top of us while we were TIPH.

It was a very busy day, one runway closed and operations on crossing runways. Apparently tower had cleared someone to land on Rwy 17 prior to us switching freq's, and then cleared us into position and hold. There was one aircraft landing on the crossing runway (8), and then the controller cleared a take-off from that runway as well. He was apparently watching the timing for the take-off from 8 and the landing on 17 and forgot that he had put us onto 17. We had pulled onto 17 and knew that there was a CRJ landing on 8, and we watched him roll out and make the turn off prior to our intersection, and heard ATC clear the other aircraft to takeoff from 8 so we were figuring we'd be on the roll as soon as the departing plane cleared our runway. Just about then a Mooney passes directly overhead, climbing and turning left! The tower yells at the Mooney because he was turning the same direction as the departing traffic off from 8 and asks him what he's doing. The Mooney replies that there was a plane on his runway so he was going around. The tower replies back "that aircraft was going to be well past the intersection before you got to the runway, I CLEARED YOU TO LAND!" The Mooney replied back: "There was an airplane on our runway. He's still there!" The tower got real, real, real quiet. When the tower came back on he had a real shake in his voice as he realized that he had put us in harm's way and then forgot we were there...

Not good.

:(
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I got something real similar in training at Ameriflight, Steve.

It was like 2:00 a.m. and they were doing some work on the taxiway we were going to use, so we got a really weird instruction. He told us to proceed onto runway 8 at Charlie 8 and go position and hold, which is right next to our ramp. Now this sounded REAL strange to both me and my training captain, so I clarified it and made sure he wanted us to go position and hold at charlie 8, which made zero sense to me but I figured maybe he was going to back taxi us down the runway and there was an airport vehicle crossing down the runway that I couldn't see. Then my training captain got on the radio and also clarified it and the controller got pissed off at us and said, "Yes sir, position and hold runway 8 at charlie 8!"

So off we go to charlie 8, sitting on the runway with out backs to the landing traffic that might be coming off the ILS to 8 (we were trying to get to 26). I lit us up light a Christmas tree and sat there for about 45 seconds before I said to my training captain, "Dude something here isn't right, I'm getting off this runway right now until we get this sorted out." A few seconds later a company Metro checked in on the ILS 8 and just as I was starting to get off the runway and telling the tower that I was getting off the active runway I hear, "Amflight 8031...WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON THE RUNWAY!?!?!"

"You put us here sir."

*silence*

"Exit the runway at Bravo 8, taxi east on bravo to 26, hold short of runway 15."

I think he was the only one up there that night. I felt bad for him, he's normally on his game, but he screwed up that night.
 
What is wrong with "Taxi into position and hold"?

It seems like a very useful way to get a departing flight on the runway and ready to go when there is another aircraft on the runway that hasn't exited yet.
 
Hacker15e said:
What is wrong with "Taxi into position and hold"?

It seems like a very useful way to get a departing flight on the runway and ready to go when there is another aircraft on the runway that hasn't exited yet.
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The FAA has decided it's too dangerous and did away with it unless certain conditions are met. I know it was a long time ago, but this might have been a factor...

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X16433&key=1

We cover that one during indoc here, and it was what was running through my head as I had sitting there on a runway at 2:00 a.m.
 
Here at CVG they only do TIPAH on RWY 27 because there's no landing traffic till 2200, when that becomes the main rwy due to noise abaitment.
 
SteveC said:
I had a controller do a major screw up yesterday and almost land someone on top of us while we were TIPH.

It was a very busy day, one runway closed and operations on crossing runways. Apparently tower had cleared someone to land on Rwy 17 prior to us switching freq's, and then cleared us into position and hold. There was one aircraft landing on the crossing runway (8), and then the controller cleared a take-off from that runway as well. He was apparently watching the timing for the take-off from 8 and the landing on 17 and forgot that he had put us onto 17. We had pulled onto 17 and knew that there was a CRJ landing on 8, and we watched him roll out and make the turn off prior to our intersection, and heard ATC clear the other aircraft to takeoff from 8 so we were figuring we'd be on the roll as soon as the departing plane cleared our runway. Just about then a Mooney passes directly overhead, climbing and turning left! The tower yells at the Mooney because he was turning the same direction as the departing traffic off from 8 and asks him what he's doing. The Mooney replies that there was a plane on his runway so he was going around. The tower replies back "that aircraft was going to be well past the intersection before you got to the runway, I CLEARED YOU TO LAND!" The Mooney replied back: "There was an airplane on our runway. He's still there!" The tower got real, real, real quiet. When the tower came back on he had a real shake in his voice as he realized that he had put us in harm's way and then forgot we were there...

Not good.

:(
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Steve, you guys did report that right? If not, it's not too late.
 
What about uncontrolled fields?

I've heard "Positioning for departure on 18" while another a/c was just about to rotate.
 
jonnyb said:
Steve, you guys did report that right? If not, it's not too late.
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There was a charity event going on at our field for Wings of Mercy. One of our aircraft owners donated time on their jet, so we were giving short rides in the jet for people that donated money to Wings. There were also numerous single engine prop planes, as well as some acrobatic aircraft giving flights at the same time. There were other aircraft flying in for the pancake breakfast, as well as other odds and ends coming in for static displays. Very busy day.

Before everything began one of the tower controllers came down and held a briefing for all the pilots that were going to be participating. We reviewed special procedures, routes, and other details. After the briefing I chatted with the controller for a bit, and he mentioned (as he had done in the briefing) that the controllers on duty that day had all worked this event in the past and they had all juggled there schedule specifically to be there. They enjoyed the additional traffic, appreciated the charity, and had a good relationship with the pilots. Kind of like the guys that volunteer for Oshkosh every year, just a much smaller scale. He also mentioned that they had a new supervisor, and that this person wasn't yet up to speed on some of these kind of events, and was a little bit of a "nervous nellie" about the amount of traffic and the unusual flight patterns that were being handled.

Needless to say, while half of me was P.O.'ed as all get-out about being put into that position, the other half of me felt really bad for a controller that had just screwed up big time, with (I am sure) a nervous supervisor looking over his shoulder, and was going out of his way to help with a worthwhile cause. I know, without asking, that he is paying the price for his mistake. He doesn't need, nor deserve, to have me pile on by reporting the incident. I know, just from his tone of voice in his transmissions, that he was kicking himself harder than I could.

No, I didn't report the incident. Because of the circumstances I saw no need to do so.

I still feel 50% angry and 50% sad. Somebody that was trying to do something good screwed up. By the grace of God nobody was hurt, but I could see the potential for the repercussions to hurt this event in the future, depending on how the supervisor handles the situation. Sucks all the way around.
 
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