Takeoff.....static or rolling

Maddog1974

Maddog1974

Well-Known Member
Ok, so lets assume two different scenarios. One for a towered field and one for a non towered field. What do you teach the primary stuident to do when he/she rolls onto the runway? Full stop and hold then power and roll...or....roll onto the runway, line up on the centerline, and then apply power for the takeoff run?

At the controlled/ towered field we will assume that if there is an aircraft on final then the takeoff will be a rolling run from the hold short line.

Lets assume the same for the uncontrolled field and there are other aircraft in the pattern. Then another rolling run from the hold short line.

Assume that we are not cutting anyone off in the pattern or on final unless the go ahead is given by the tower (to depart, not cut another aircraft off) or you can determine that your departure would not endanger an arriving flight at the uncontrolled field.

What do you teach? I was taught that if there is time and you do not pause for too long then you roll out to the centerline, stop, check compass and HI, and then apply power for the takeoff run. Not much delay, just a quick once over the compass/HI, apply 50-70% power, check oil pressure/temperature, and then release and apply full power. Then someone questioned me about it.

The comment was made as a that's a "maddog" thing. Not sure what other folks were taught and would love to hear what part 135 operators do as well. Except maybe for the freight dogs, turn and burn comes to mind!

Thanks
 
Depends on the situation to a large extent. From a teaching standpoint sometimes I still have stuff to say before student gets going. Maybe a few last minute reminders. If that's not the case though, I am not a big fan of just sitting on the runway for longer than needed. So roll out on center line, line up and get a heading check, and note then time if needed, then off we go. all while maybe rolling a tad. Don't see a reason to come to a full stop.
 
Maddog1974 said:
The comment was made as a that's a "maddog" thing. Not sure what other folks were taught and would love to hear what part 135 operators do as well.
Click to expand...

At my company (135 passenger), we typically use a rolling takeoff unless accel/stop or accel/go distances would be compromised as a result. On short runways, I'll almost always use a static takeoff due to this.

Even with a rolling takeoff, I still maintain a slow roll briefly once aligned on the centerline, check the HSI, then apply takeoff power. I'm not a fan of the takeoffs that are done by adding takeoff power in the turn onto the runway. Poor form, IMO. I think either of these techniques would work fine in an instructional capacity, as neither actually rushes the student to start the takeoff roll before he/she is ready. :)
 
dasleben said:
At my company (135 passenger), we typically use a rolling takeoff unless accel/stop or accel/go distances would be compromised as a result. On short runways, I'll almost always use a static takeoff due to this.

Even with a rolling takeoff, I still maintain a slow roll briefly once aligned on the centerline, check the HSI, then apply takeoff power. I'm not a fan of the takeoffs that are done by adding takeoff power in the turn onto the runway. Poor form, IMO. I think either of these techniques would work fine in an instructional capacity, as neither actually rushes the student to start the takeoff roll before he/she is ready. :)
Click to expand...
Tend to agree with that. Throwing the knobs to the firewall in the turn to the runway just smacks of impatience/being rushed. Neither are good for a safe flight.
 
Either a static or a roller, depending on the situation. (I've got "primary" students, sort of. They're actually military UPT students, so it's a little different, but on average they've only got like 20 hours)

For us, when the students fly solo they are required to do a static takeoff, so I'll teach them that for about half of their sorties prior to solo, including the 1 or 2 sorties right before the solo. That's primarily driven by a regulation requirement, though, so it wouldn't necessarily translate to the civilian world.

Other than that, our regs require static takeoffs at night, and I would always plan on a static takeoff in a short runway scenario because it will use a little less runway than a roller.

I also do static takeoffs in formation... but again, not much of that going on in the civilian world.

If it's not one of those scenarios, then it's usually a roller. As for the speed of the taxi turn leading into the takeoff, it depends on the aircraft and on proficiency. Don't really have a problem with a moderate to slightly quick entry into the rolling takeoff... provided the aircraft is firmly under the control of a proficient pilot. For a student, a slower roll onto the runway is probably appropriate, but since there is no clear line between "how fast is too fast?" or "how slow is too slow?" it's tough to come up with a clear decision making point between the two.
 
From my checklist I have my students use:

Holding short: doors/winds check, fuel shut off check, mixture rich, lights as req, transponder on/alt, engine instruments check, runway clear, final approach clear.

While rolling (memorize): engine instruments in green, airspeed alive, rotate 50-60 (don't allow visual students to use this, it is there for when I move to IFR or have a commercial student).

Wheels up (memorize): airspeed check, pitch for climb, wheel brakes tap if necessary.


For a primary student pre cross country I don't even let them set the DG as I don't want them looking inside all turns are done to visual points and it allows me to give them some practice using a compass. A slow roll out is used for every takeoff unless short field ops with the aim to spend as little time on the runway as possible especially at uncontrolled fields.
 
Get off the runway as quickly as feasible, unless you are teaching short field technique or the aircraft/op specs specifically require you to stop on the runway. You never know when some yahoo will come out of nowhere, not talking to anyone, and try to land on top of you.
 
shdw said:
From my checklist I have my students use:

Holding short: doors/winds check, fuel shut off check, mixture rich, lights as req, transponder on/alt, engine instruments check, runway clear, final approach clear.

While rolling (memorize): engine instruments in green, airspeed alive, rotate 50-60 (don't allow visual students to use this, it is there for when I move to IFR or have a commercial student).

Wheels up (memorize): airspeed check, pitch for climb, wheel brakes tap if necessary.


For a primary student pre cross country I don't even let them set the DG as I don't want them looking inside all turns are done to visual points and it allows me to give them some practice using a compass. A slow roll out is used for every takeoff unless short field ops with the aim to spend as little time on the runway as possible especially at uncontrolled fields.
Click to expand...



I get them to set the DG from day 1. Thats called primacy.
 
dasleben said:
At my company (135 passenger), we typically use a rolling takeoff unless accel/stop or accel/go distances would be compromised as a result. On short runways, I'll almost always use a static takeoff due to this.

Even with a rolling takeoff, I still maintain a slow roll briefly once aligned on the centerline, check the HSI, then apply takeoff power. I'm not a fan of the takeoffs that are done by adding takeoff power in the turn onto the runway. Poor form, IMO. I think either of these techniques would work fine in an instructional capacity, as neither actually rushes the student to start the takeoff roll before he/she is ready. :)
Click to expand...

Unless you need max performance, then I'd recommend throwing the whips to it.
 
Crockrocket94 said:
I get them to set the DG from day 1. Thats called primacy.
Click to expand...

When it is listed in 91.203? if I have that number right as a required VFR equipment then I will gladly start doing that. You don't teach setting up the VORs the first day why teach to set and use everything else the first day?

My brief is as so for the instruments, "from now until solo the only instruments I want you to worry about is this (pointing to the altimeter) to help you maintain altitude to assess your maneuver performance and this (pointing to the airspeed) when your in the pattern to keep yourself safe from stall."

Primacy refers to something being taught right the first time in this case something is being left out/ignored to be added later. There is no need for a DG if you can read a compass its just added junk IMO.
 
shdw said:
When it is listed in 91.205? if I have that number right as a required VFR equipment then I will gladly start doing that. You don't teach setting up the VORs the first day why teach to set and use everything else the first day?
Click to expand...
 
mshunter said:
91.205
Click to expand...

Thanks, was it ever 203 that you know of? I don't know why but I have had that screwed up so many times and I can't figure out why. I wonder if when I memorized it first in my private training if it was different than (2002/03) now or if I am just nuts.
 
Crockrocket94 said:
Educate me then.
Click to expand...

May I try? Not to step on Douglas' toes but I am curious if I have the ideas right in my head. Also my reply to you, sorry if it sounded in a poor tone it wasn't meant to.

Primacy refers to ideas presented the first time will remain longer and be remembered with less effort, as if forming a habit from day one.

In the case in question, a theorist might say wording plays the biggest role. If you tell a student when it comes time to do the instrument check/set on the checklist that all we ever have to set is the altimeter they will remember it as such, "all we have..." Conversely if you tell them for now we will just worry about setting the altimeter it will be remembered as "for now..." This will imply from day one to them that there is more but we don't need to do that yet. This may be a bit of a stretch but as I haven't read anything confirming or denying this I choose to try and avoid the absolute words when teaching any procedure in case more needs to be added on.

The accepted law of primacy refers to a procedure being given wrong will be remembered that way and take time to break. This combine with exercise, or how long it took to correct the faulty procedure will determine the time required to fix it. An example would be one of my first students who I accidently taught pitch, trim, power for his first two lessons on level off. It took 5 lessons before that was fixed and he still stumbled over it as long as 10 lessons later.

Think of the mind like a dry erase board, the first words you say will be put in permanent marker and anything there after will be your usual dry erase marker. Like any dry erase board, that permanent marker can be cleaned off but takes much more effort and the longer it sets the more difficult this becomes. You can always add to the board but each time you add something remember it is with that permanent marker.

How did I do Douglas?
 
I guess what I am saying is Primacy on a large picture.

I am guessing you are looking at the single idea of setting the DG and HOW it is taught. I am not saying you are teaching it WRONG. Keep that in mind.

You said it yourself in the post. Habit Forming.

That is where I am looking at this idea of primacy.

I would much rather have my student capable of using all tools in the airplane by the time they are ready to Solo, let along start flying cross-countries.

I want them to get into a habit of routinly checking the DG. I want them to develop this habit before they start getting so focused on navigation as per dead reckoning and pilotage.

I am talking about a larger picture than just the idea of teaching it properly. Don't get me wrong, but I think there are a few levels of this going on at the same time.
 
No worries I didn't take it as you saying right or wrong and likewise on my part I am just questioning the reasoning, not the idea. I am a nut when it comes to analyzing and picking apart the reasoning for an idea because if I understand the reasoning then I will change my techniques to fit those reasons.

My issue I guess you could say with the reasoning here is where does it end? By that I mean if we teach altimeter/dg set from day one then why not a full set up of the radio stack, set every VOR, put in the direct route for the GPS, set up the AP (if installed), etc. The "I want it to be practiced as much as possible" must have a limit right? But where do we draw the line, why, and does it agree with teaching techniques long developed in other areas outside of flying. See what I mean by this?

As for the primacy part I will sit back and wait to hear what Douglas has to say or some others before discussing that anymore. I am not quite sure what you mean by many levels though.
 
Douglas said:
I show them both and let them do both at their discretion.

Most of them just roll on.
Click to expand...

Agree, basically. I teach them to be the pilot in command, to the best of my ability and knowledge of what that means. Sometimes the situation necessitates one technique or another. That's where training comes in, building this "toolbox" of options. But always choose the safest option. That's where post-flight debriefing comes in.

"Give a guy a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a guy to fish and he sits in a boat and drinks beer all da-- uh, I mean, you feed him for life."
- Don't know who I'm quoting, if anyone

-A.S.
 
Maddog1974 said:
Ok, so lets assume two different scenarios. One for a towered field and one for a non towered field. What do you teach the primary stuident to do when he/she rolls onto the runway? Full stop and hold then power and roll...or....roll onto the runway, line up on the centerline, and then apply power for the takeoff run?
Click to expand...
back to our original question
_offtopic__by_darkmoon3636.gif


I don't teach anything different for a towered or non-towered field. As with some others here, it's more about the situation. To me, full power at full stop is for those situations in which I'm concerned about maximizing and confirming power: short available runway, obstacles to outclimb, high density altitude.

Even then, unless going to full power during the run-up will disturb others or the airplane is powerful enough that it may creep forward at full power even with the brakes tight, or it's a short field where the loss of momentum from stopping is counterbalanced by getting to the very end of the runway, I'll generally do it in the run-up area rather than on the runway.

So I teach both, as tools in the pilot's kit.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top