Takeoff alternate and 121.197

ak_mavic

Well-Known Member
So I’ve been chatting with some pilots and they seem to disagree with the regs. I told them I would have to reduce their MTOW to comply with 197 for their MLW at any listed alternate, including takeoff alternate. They claim it doesn’t apply because a T/O Alt is only ever going to be used during emergencies and therefore they can deviate from regulations. Anyone want to take their side, or does anyone have additional proof backing my side?
 

Heliman81

Well-Known Member
The takeoff alternate will be used if they lose an engine on takeoff .. no one is going to not get that plane on the ground when youve lost an engine. Lets see, would you rather lose an engine and land overweight or crash because you were busy trying to burn fuel and not land overweight? In an emergency the Captains emergency authority will take over. ^
 

ak_mavic

Well-Known Member
A takeoff alternate needs alternate mins, but it is intended for use should an emergency arise. In that case, FAR 121.557 allows deviations under the Captain's emergency authority.
I’m not asking about minimums, I’m asking about MLW. I understand when an emergency actually arises a captain can deviate from regulations, but 121.197 says nothing about planning for an emergency, nor does 121.617. Those regs only refer to listing an alternate.

The takeoff alternate will be used if they lose an engine on takeoff .. no one is going to not get that plane on the ground when youve lost an engine. Lets see, would you rather lose an engine and land overweight or crash because you were busy trying to burn fuel and not land overweight? In an emergency the Captains emergency authority will take over. ^
I know I’m going to get that plane on the ground and not care about landing weight if it looses an engine, but what am I legally permitted to plan for? An emergency every time I list a takeoff alternate?

You really think international flights cap the weight in taltn situations for mldw! C'mon man!
You really think everyone is going around violating regs just so they can take off max? Cmon Mr. connections
 

CPZ9900

Well-Known Member
So I’ve been chatting with some pilots and they seem to disagree with the regs. I told them I would have to reduce their MTOW to comply with 197 for their MLW at any listed alternate, including takeoff alternate. They claim it doesn’t apply because a T/O Alt is only ever going to be used during emergencies and therefore they can deviate from regulations. Anyone want to take their side, or does anyone have additional proof backing my side?
Yeah. No. I’ll take the pilots side on this one.
 

who'swho

Don't hesitate. Penetrate!
I’m not asking about minimums, I’m asking about MLW. I understand when an emergency actually arises a captain can deviate from regulations, but 121.197 says nothing about planning for an emergency, nor does 121.617. Those regs only refer to listing an alternate.



I know I’m going to get that plane on the ground and not care about landing weight if it looses an engine, but what am I legally permitted to plan for? An emergency every time I list a takeoff alternate?



You really think everyone is going around violating regs just so they can take off max? Cmon Mr. connections
We plan to land overweight at the takeoff alternate all the time. Makes sense to me that it's legal to do that since you really are looking at it as an emergency airport. Obviously it still needs to meet alt mins.
 

ak_mavic

Well-Known Member
We plan to land overweight at the takeoff alternate all the time. Makes sense to me that it's legal to do that since you really are looking at it as an emergency airport. Obviously it still needs to meet alt mins.
Can you back it up? I’m just asking what reg says I can ignore 121.197 when I’m listing a T/O alternate. Believe I get the whole, it’s an emergency thing so who cares if we’re over weight. I can only deviate from regulations when an emergency has been declared, not before hand.
 

womanpilot73

Well-Known Member
I’m not asking about minimums, I’m asking about MLW. I understand when an emergency actually arises a captain can deviate from regulations, but 121.197 says nothing about planning for an emergency, nor does 121.617. Those regs only refer to listing an alternate.

I know I’m going to get that plane on the ground and not care about landing weight if it looses an engine, but what am I legally permitted to plan for? An emergency every time I list a takeoff alternate?

You really think everyone is going around violating regs just so they can take off max? Cmon Mr. connections
I understand you weren't asking about minimums but I threw that in there to be thorough. If I'd been more thorough, I'd have also said that your takeoff alternate needs to be listed in C070. In any event, I will say again what I thought I was pretty clear about the first time. A takeoff alternate is listed for the sole purpose that should an aircraft have an emergency (engine failure) after departure, they have a legal alternate listed within the time/distance according to the regs.

121.197 says "In the case of an alternate airport for departure, as provided in §121.617, allowance may be made for fuel jettisoning in addition to normal consumption of fuel and oil when determining the weight anticipated at the time of arrival"

However, in the event of an emergency, which is what the takeoff alternate is intended for, 121.557 overrides all.

If you need further clarification on this, I'd suggest calling your local dispatch fed... good luck :)
 

womanpilot73

Well-Known Member
Can you back it up? I’m just asking what reg says I can ignore 121.197 when I’m listing a T/O alternate. Believe I get the whole, it’s an emergency thing so who cares if we’re over weight. I can only deviate from regulations when an emergency has been declared, not before hand.
The fact that it's listed for an emergency after departure, if an aircraft goes to their takeoff alternate, it's because there's an emergency and one will be declared.
 

ak_mavic

Well-Known Member
I understand you weren't asking about minimums but I threw that in there to be thorough. If I'd been more thorough, I'd have also said that your takeoff alternate needs to be listed in C070. In any event, I will say again what I thought I was pretty clear about the first time. A takeoff alternate is listed for the sole purpose that should an aircraft have an emergency (engine failure) after departure, they have a legal alternate listed within the time/distance according to the regs.

121.197 says "In the case of an alternate airport for departure, as provided in §121.617, allowance may be made for fuel jettisoning in addition to normal consumption of fuel and oil when determining the weight anticipated at the time of arrival"

However, in the event of an emergency, which is what the takeoff alternate is intended for, 121.557 overrides all.

If you need further clarification on this, I'd suggest calling your local dispatch fed... good luck :)
Thank you for trying to clarify, but there is no proof you pointed to stating that I can ignore regulations, specifically 121.197 for a takeoff alternate. Yes you said I can fuel jettison IAW 121.617, however my planes are not capable of doing so.

Yes I understand a takeoff alternate is intended for emergencies and when an emergency is declared we can deviate from regulations. However I’m not familiar with any regulation saying when I’m planning a flight, whether I’m listing a takeoff alternate or not, or planning for an emergency or not, that I can ignore all other regulations. If I haven’t declared an emergency yet, which I definitely haven’t because I’m still planning the flight, I cannot deviate from a regulation.
 

CPZ9900

Well-Known Member
I understand you weren't asking about minimums but I threw that in there to be thorough. If I'd been more thorough, I'd have also said that your takeoff alternate needs to be listed in C070. In any event, I will say again what I thought I was pretty clear about the first time. A takeoff alternate is listed for the sole purpose that should an aircraft have an emergency (engine failure) after departure, they have a legal alternate listed within the time/distance according to the regs.

121.197 says "In the case of an alternate airport for departure, as provided in §121.617, allowance may be made for fuel jettisoning in addition to normal consumption of fuel and oil when determining the weight anticipated at the time of arrival"

However, in the event of an emergency, which is what the takeoff alternate is intended for, 121.557 overrides all.

If you need further clarification on this, I'd suggest calling your local dispatch fed... good luck :)
 

McCrosky

Well-Known Member
So I’ve been chatting with some pilots and they seem to disagree with the regs. I told them I would have to reduce their MTOW to comply with 197 for their MLW at any listed alternate, including takeoff alternate. They claim it doesn’t apply because a T/O Alt is only ever going to be used during emergencies and therefore they can deviate from regulations. Anyone want to take their side, or does anyone have additional proof backing my side?
121.197 says you have to be able to stop the airplane within 60% of the effective length of the runway. That’s a performance number, not a structural limit from the manufacturer. That FAR doesn’t care if you being the gear strut. Only that the brakes work to stop you from rolling off the end. Now, if you list a TO alt for a 747 that only has a 2000’ ft runway, then you being illegal AND unsafe and should have your license pulled. But if you land at a TO alt over max structural then you’re fine as long as you can stop. My employers have also provided landing data for C70 airports that went up well over the structural max weight of the aircraft types to provide for this.

To be truly exact you also need to know exactly where the captain plans to shut down the engine so you can provide an accurate engine out burn. You should ask him or her next time.
 

CRJInTheHeartOfTexas

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We plan to land overweight at the takeoff alternate all the time. Makes sense to me that it's legal to do that since you really are looking at it as an emergency airport. Obviously it still needs to meet alt mins.
You do you then. Call the feds and let them know of this major mistake that is constantly being violated. SAD!
 

bbmikej

Well-Known Member
The reason for the takeoff alternate is if the weather at the departure airport is beneath mins. It is assumed that an aircraft will return to field in an emergency situation should weather allow. Does this mean that all flights should be planned such that it is beneath MLW at takeoff in this situation. The only real thing this is required to get an aircraft back in service after an overweight landing is a MX inspection. If you are needing to take advantage of a TO Altn, MX will have to be at the aircraft anyways so might as well add that inspection to the list.
 

Heliman81

Well-Known Member
Thank you for trying to clarify, but there is no proof you pointed to stating that I can ignore regulations, specifically 121.197 for a takeoff alternate. Yes you said I can fuel jettison IAW 121.617, however my planes are not capable of doing so.

Yes I understand a takeoff alternate is intended for emergencies and when an emergency is declared we can deviate from regulations. However I’m not familiar with any regulation saying when I’m planning a flight, whether I’m listing a takeoff alternate or not, or planning for an emergency or not, that I can ignore all other regulations. If I haven’t declared an emergency yet, which I definitely haven’t because I’m still planning the flight, I cannot deviate from a regulation.
You're planning for a worst case situation. The prerequisite for picking a takeoff alt is based on losing an engine which that in and of itself constitutes an emergency.

121.197 defines stop distances.. 121.617 discusses takeoff alternates. Does aerodata restrict your landing weight at your takeoff alternate? Lol
 
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