Tailwind Takeoffs Are No Fun.

[T/O w/FSII]

There are a few airports where crews would stand and watch the violations happen. Aspen was one of them. Never seeing so many landing outside of tailwind limits as well as takeoffs. That airport is no joke. If it comes out that tower told them it was 10kts so they could takeoff, all hell is gonna break loose. Either way. The crew has some ssssplainin’ to do.

Tower said 160 at 16g25, instantaneous 180 at 10.

 

[spbrian]

There are a few airports where crews would stand and watch the violations happen. Aspen was one of them. Never seeing so many landing outside of tailwind limits as well as takeoffs. That airport is no joke. If it comes out that tower told them it was 10kts so they could takeoff, all hell is gonna break loose. Either way. The crew has some ssssplainin’ to do.

Seems to me the tower did what they have always done in Aspen, and have done during previous accidents with no problems.

Tower gave good information, it's up to the crews to utilize this information to make an informed decision, not the tower's job to withhold it.

 

[pwttogfk]

Seems to me the tower did what they have always done in Aspen, and have done during previous accidents with no problems.

Tower gave good information, it's up to the crews to utilize this information to make an informed decision, not the tower's job to withhold it.

It is what the tower’s always done. Is it good information? ATIS is supposed to be updated hourly except when conditions rapidly change. The AIM even gives an option for putting on ATIS that tower will issue weather when conditions are extremely variable. They don’t do that. Because, bluntly, things aren’t really changing. They’re looking for momentary lulls in the wind to allow an operation outside of limitations to have a dubious guise of legality.

 

[spbrian]

It is what the tower’s always done. Is it good information? ATIS is supposed to be updated hourly except when conditions rapidly change. The AIM even gives an option for putting on ATIS that tower will issue weather when conditions are extremely variable. They don’t do that. Because, bluntly, things aren’t really changing. They’re looking for momentary lulls in the wind to allow an operation outside of limitations to have a dubious guise of legality.

The tower doesn't force the crews to do anything, the crew makes the decision on the best information at the time given to them. If tower is giving more up to date information for the crew to make their decisions on, well wow way to go above and beyond. But again, let's not change culpability. Tower reported weather, crew made decisions.

What happens if the minute winds show that the tailwind component was only 8 knots and the plane had a blown tire before V1 that caused the excursion? No one knows why they aborted, just that they did have an abort, at a highly challenging airport and everyone lived. For now, this is what we can say is good.

 

[pwttogfk]

Ok, but what other towers do this with winds? And does Aspen tower give instantaneous winds when they’re higher than what’s on ATIS? I sure haven’t heard that.

 

[Boris Badenov]

They're transparently reporting the "needed" winds to get the metal moved and it's obviously outside the intended purpose of the regs. Are we really even arguing about this?

 

[DPApilot]

I’ve flown into Aspen countless times. The two times I didn’t make it in was beautiful weather, but the winds weren’t in our favor. Held for a bit before explaining to the pax that we can continue to hold, or get you to Eagle and have a car ready by the time we land. The drive to Aspen would be faster than holding, only to end up diverting.

 

[Fixtur]

You only diverted twice into Aspen?! What's your secret?

 

[NovemberEcho]

Fun fact: almost all of the controllers at Aspen live at least 90 min away because they can’t afford to live in Aspen.

source: we have a trainee that transferred from there

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I’ve never been to Aspen, but the title of this thread bothers me. Tailwind takeoffs are just fine if you respect your aircraft limitations and have the performance to pull it off safely. It’s not rocket surgery.

 

[Stone Cold]

I’ve never been to Aspen, but the title of this thread bothers me. Tailwind takeoffs are just fine if you respect your aircraft limitations and have the performance to pull it off safely. It’s not rocket surgery.

The problem is when tower “lies” to you to keep metal moving and you actually have a 20kt tailwind vs them saying instantaneous winds are only a 9kt tailwind. They are infamous for it as you can tell with all the stories about it.

 

[CFI A&P]

Fun fact: almost all of the controllers at Aspen live at least 90 min away because they can’t afford to live in Aspen.

source: we have a trainee that transferred from there

That checks. Is there a COLA or BAH correction for such circumstances ?

 

[NovemberEcho]

That checks. Is there a COLA or BAH correction for such circumstances ?

we have locality pay, but it is not based on cost of living but rather some unknown metric related to an approximation of what our salaries would be in the civilian sector of that town. It normally correlates pretty well with CoL, but this creates some really weird disparities too. In Aspens case, until a couple years ago they were at the “rest of US” locality of 14% which is the minimum. This is because no one who actually works in Aspen makes a lot of money because all the rich people don’t actually live there. They have Denver locality now which is better but they’re still a low level tower so their salary isn’t huge.

 

[JordanD]

The problem is when tower “lies” to you to keep metal moving and you actually have a 20kt tailwind vs them saying instantaneous winds are only a 9kt tailwind. They are infamous for it as you can tell with all the stories about it.

"What's your RVR requirement?"

 

[ASpilot2be]

"What's your RVR requirement?"

*Cough*Arcata*cough*

 

[JordanD]

*Cough*Arcata*cough*

Hah, I remember when I got sent there when I was on high mins and sure enough, it was 300-1. Some jackwagon was putzing around flying back and forth across the final so SEA center cancelled our approach clearance and the dispatcher saw and immediately started ACARSing us like "WERE YOU GUYS NOT ABLE TO GET IN?!?!?!"

 

[ASpilot2be]

Hah, I remember when I got sent there when I was on high mins and sure enough, it was 300-1. Some jackwagon was putzing around flying back and forth across the final so SEA center cancelled our approach clearance and the dispatcher saw and immediately started ACARSing us like "WERE YOU GUYS NOT ABLE TO GET IN?!?!?!"

There's always something strange going on there. That one guy was still probably in the clear too because the cloud layer was only 200 feet thick.

 

[JordanD]

There's always something strange going on there. That one guy was still probably in the clear too because the cloud layer was only 200 feet thick.

Hah, yup. Clear and a million everywhere. Airport was legitimately 300-1. I always joked it wasn't fog but weed smoke since it's Humboldt County.

 

[SrFnFly227]

we have locality pay, but it is not based on cost of living but rather some unknown metric related to an approximation of what our salaries would be in the civilian sector of that town. It normally correlates pretty well with CoL, but this creates some really weird disparities too. In Aspens case, until a couple years ago they were at the “rest of US” locality of 14% which is the minimum. This is because no one who actually works in Aspen makes a lot of money because all the rich people don’t actually live there. They have Denver locality now which is better but they’re still a low level tower so their salary isn’t huge.

I've heard a similar story from a controller friend in Nantucket. Salary based on some city across the water.

 

[fholbert]

New one.

24-FEB-22

18:40:00Z

N712AE

ASPEN

COLORADO

EMBRAER/EMB-135

INCIDENT

MINOR

0

AIRCRAFT DURING LANDING VEERED OFF THE RUNWAY INTO SNOW, ASPEN, CO.