T-birds/Blue Angels and separation

SteveC said:
Marching to the planes. All except for the Marine Blue pilot...
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Nice one! But no. I'll let a few more folks answer before giving mine, and we'll see if MikeD agrees with me.

(Careful giving credit where credit may not be due; I remember watching that documentary on the Blues on the Military Channel, and watching the Marine Maj pop a salute with his *left* hand during the march-out! Too funny! Marine or not, pilots are pilots and just don't do a lot of marching once commissioned.)
 
John2375 said:
...I can tolerate his bashing of PFT programs but to badmouth the elite of our countries' fighter pilots is not necessary...
:-)
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I personally know, socialize and fly with two ex-Blues. They'd be the last to consider themselves the "elite" of the fighter community. They both will tell you that what they did on the team any US fighter pilot could do with as much practice as they get doing it. Admire what these guys do but don't put them up on some pedestal.

Having flown with both I can tell you that they are both very competent pilots but make the same mistakes the rest of us do. One even admitted to me that finesse and judgment in the flare was the hardest thing for him to adapt to since that wasn't much of a requirement in the FA-18.

Having said that...watching both teams still give me goose pimples!:rawk:
 
I realize they're not the best per se, but of course just great pilots with the image the AF or Navy wants, I understand that - I just take exception to them being reduced to a cheesy side-show and being all-fluff and worth nothing by certain people here.

It'd been a long time since I read the perspectives section so I didn't realize MikeD is in there with his name, but it still shocks me to hear him say something like that, regardless of whether he's in the AF or not.

Of course all fighter pilots can fly the maneuveurs they fly...as they say, they just fly them in tighter formation and closer to the ground. I"d love to know if MikeD would've considered joining them if he'd been asked?? I know he wouldn't admit to it, but surely there was a time he was in awe of what they could do at some time. Of course they would'nt want him coming to the flight line after the show and telling the kids "we're just cheesy loop-guys flying to music, wasting your mommy and daddy's tax dollars -hope you enjoyed the show - stay in school!!"

I still like my idea of PFT to fly w/these guys - it's been a dream of mine for years, so if I plunk down the $ I'm sure I'll be qualified after the necessary training and 120 practice flights - well maybe I'll just invest the $ and let it grow to $20million and hitch a ride to space instead......
 
Dude, we all understand where you're coming from, we've all been there.

But in the same way that some people want to consider the primadonnas playing baseball this week "elite athletes", the truth is, they're merely entertainers--and so are the Blues and T-birds; they are the rock stars of the aviation world and that is their allure. But just like most rock stars, their performances are largely flash and little substance. This was the point of my question regarding the most difficult maneuver the two teams perform--which, by the way, is the re-join following the "bomb burst" maneuvers; it's not very exciting visually, but it requires the most skill and judgment on the pilots' part.

The thing is, real tactical flying is so much demanding and awe-inspiring than watching an airplane fly straight down the runway inverted. I've always thought that the two demo teams should insert some realism into their performances by simulating a 2v2 visual engagement (dogfight) in front of the crowd; that would be cool and actually representative of reality.

Recognize the demo teams for what they are: a PR tool. By definition, PR is not the mission of the Air Force or the Navy; their mission is to project power globally by wreaking utter destruction when and where they're told. The demo teams are not an accurate reflection of what military pilots (and maintainers) do on an ongoing basis by any stretch of the imagination and thus, the circus side-show attraction label IS appropriate.
 
I agree with all that except they're not a circus-side show - if they're considered that w/in the Air Force/Navy, why the hell would anyone want to even apply, if it'll only lead to ridicule?
On the outside, to the general public that doesn't know what military flying is really like, of course they're rockstars - they're the main reason so many millions flock to see them each year - because jets flying 3 feet apart at 500 mph IS exciting, whether it's realitic or not.
I"m never going to be a T-bird or Blue so I could really care less - the thread has gotten off track:
SO, does anyoen think the T-birds have been slipping a little in recent years, for whatever reason?? Obviously their flying skills are exceptional because they're fighter pilots, but the teamwork must be missing something in some areas if little mental mistakes are occuring.

As for hardest maneuver - I'm sure you're right about the re-join after the bomb-burst, however, wouldn't there be a maneuver that's more or less difficult for each member?
Like the trail-to-diamond roll I think it's called, when they're in trail formation and re-form the diamond while rolling overhead - that's gotta be tough for #2,3,4...and wouldn't #1 be under incredible pressure to put on a perfect airshow everyday, since 2,3,4 are all following his exact move?? As for the solos, I love that Blue Angel maneuver where they come around and it looks like just one, but then they roll or something and you see there's actually 2 - love that!
One more question: why are #2 and #3 oppositely-numbered?? #2 is leftwing w/the T-brds, but right on the Blues, and vice versa....
 
In the grand scheme of all things military, the demo teams ARE a circus side-show. The "shock and awe" phase of the Iraq invasion was a prime example of the Main Act. Makes pretty formation tricks--and the "pressure" to perform a perfect show--pale in comparison.

You want pressure? Try getting your flight's ordnance onto a heavily defended target, evading SAMs, anti-aircraft artillery and your own team's aircraft/cruise missiles/etc in the dark. The Big Picture is about one's combat skills, not one's formation/aerobatics skills in day VFR conditions, and THAT'S why most pilots with their poop in a group have no interest in volunteering for the assignment.

It's also frustrating from the maintainer perspective, seeing a part you need to get a gray jet back in the air delayed weeks and weeks, while the AF will bend over backwards to get the Thunderbirds that same part in under 12 hours anywhere in the world. It's happened.
 
I understand the difference in pressure, not that I've been there, but I understand that, I was just saying that of the demo pilots, I'd think #1 has that pressure to put on the perfect show, and yes, that pales in comparison to real combat...
 
This thread is amazing. A guy that is into stealing jobs from people bashes an Air Force officer and tells him exactly what said Air Force officer must REALLY be thinking while he's deployed away from his family in the middle of no where.

You've got some balls bro.
 
Ahem, "the range".

Area 51, uhh, doesn't uhh, exist... or something! :)

Love it or hate it, it's a peek at the subculture within the armed forces. From my own civilian and uneducated perspective.

I flew with a former Thunderbird a few years back in DFW. He was a great guy, but I witnessed something that he'd never admit to.

We were in the hotel van going to the layover hotel in Manchester, NH and one of the young, single flight attendants asked who the Navy pilot was because one of us botched the landing... In her eyes.

(The joke around here is that Navy guys still try to prang it on like they did on the aircraft carrier)

He answers, "Ahem, I was an Air Force pilot and a member of a precision flying team I might add!"

She replies, "What's that?"

"The USAF Thunderbirds"

"What's that?"

I said, "You know, like the Navy's Blue Angels."

She says, "Oh, I hear the Blue Angels are better anyway. I haven't even heard of the Thunderbirds!"

Ahh! MEEEEEEDIC!!!!!

But, from what I've seen, not only is there a little interservice rivalry, there's also rivalries between different aircraft types and naturally a rivalry between precision flying team pilots and regular flying Joes.

A popular statement:

Captain: "Who did you fly with last week"
Me: "Oh, I flew with (firstname/lastname)"
Captain: "Isn't he a former Marine?"
Me: "I think so."
Captain: "What was THAT like?!"
Me: "Uhh, fine I guess!"
 
Doug Taylor said:
A popular statement:

Captain: "Who did you fly with last week"
Me: "Oh, I flew with (firstname/lastname)"
Captain: "Isn't he a former Marine?"
Me: "I think so."
Captain: "What was THAT like?!"
Me: "Uhh, fine I guess!"
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The correct answer: "uhh...a lot like flying with a former AF or Navy pilot, except for a WHOLE LOT MORE 'backscatter' chicks!" :p

(Kristie, that's a JOKE!)
 
Doug Taylor said:
Ahem, "the range".

Area 51, uhh, doesn't uhh, exist... or something! :)
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No, it's been publicly acknowledged to exist. To wit:

A Nellis spokeswoman, 1st Lt. Amy Render, said the plane, which belonged to the Air Force Material Command, was taking contract workers for a Las Vegas company, JT3 LLC, from a classified airstrip on the Nellis range to the Tonopah Test Range.

She said the transport plane was in the middle of an airlift mission in support of the Air Force's flight test program.

Asked if the plane had departed the military's operating location along Groom Lake, an installation widely known as Area 51, Render said, "There is an Air Force operating location near Groom Lake but beyond that everything is classified."
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(from http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Mar-17-Wed-2004/news/23453807.html)
 
Oh I know, but ya know!

I have a friend from college whose working out in "The Range" as she says.

So I ask, "Anna, so you mean area 51?"

"The RANGE, dumass!"

"So what are you doing out there?"

"Working..."
 
John2375 said:
If MikeD ever revealed his real name I guarantee you the Air Force would have some severe words for him about what he says on a public discussion forum about their pride and joy, the Thunderbirds.
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Having known MikeD (I wonder what his real name is? :) ) for 16 years and knowing what he did to get to this country, succeed, kick massive ass to graduate first in his UPT class in the Air Force, I can certifiably say that you're kind of better off just to leave the thread alone because he's got more unadulterated Americana in that "10am stubble" he carries around than many of us have in our entire family line.

Not to kiss butt, but the guy has been there, done that, bought the t-shirt and as far as I'm concerned, he knows what the heck he's talking about.

If MikeD says everyone in the Air Force wears pink panties, well dagnabbit, that's the answer as far as I'm concerned.

Keep in mind that MikeD (and others) have done multiple combat tours where they've been shot at on a daily basis in order to enable your inalienable right to freely question his patriotism.

On a related note, even C650CPT has been shot at! Eek!

Plus "Demo" pilots and "Thunderbird/Blue Angel" pilots are two different things.
 
I asked my current captain about this thread enroute to Sacramento this evening. He was initially an F-4 pilot and then an F-15 pilot for the remainder of his tenure in the Air Force.

Now this is a rough paraphrase, but here goes.

The thunderbirds, according to him, don't do a single thing that 70% of the pilots flying similar equipment can already do. The "precision" flying that they do is more or less a combination of synchronized 'time over target" and heavy briefing, but it's not (yet again, according to him) all that spectacular.

The frustration comes because the USAF heavily uses the team as PR ("They're the best of the best, folks!") and since they're dealing one on one with the public, they have all the crazy parties and get all of the chicks because they're out doing the air show circuit. Meanwhile, the other pilots with hardpoints on the aircraft carrying weapons are out doing sorties in hostile airspace, sitting alert and doing all of the real 'studly' stuff without the exposure to the general public.

Hence, the comment about 'loops to music' compared to evasive manuevers pumping out chaff when an live enemy AAA battery 'paints' your aircraft in a known threat area.

Apparently, after a while, it starts to go to some of the T-birds heads and they start buying into the hype which carries over when they're interspersed amongst regular F-16 pilots which might cause tension.

Once again, before this gets cut 'n posted on another board and the resulting "Doug Taylor's a poopie head" emails start, that's JUST what my former USAF F-4/F-15 fellow pilot says that I'm flying with.
 
Doug,
Did you ask your captain if he thought they were nothing more than loops to music?
I"m sure that even if he doesn't think they're God-like, he at least has more respect than to cut them down to nothing more than a circus act.
And yes I've always known they were "just" fighter pilots - I never said they were the greatest pilots to ever fly - I've always known that but this is the first place I"ve ever heard them referred to with such lack of respect.
The guys out on the frontline should realize though that the T-birds/Angels aren't just showing off for the hell of it or to avoid combat; they're helping to inspire and recruit future military pilots to continue the mission the guys on the frontline are doing now! If you join the military to become a Thunderbird or Blue Angel, you're kidding yourself - the chances are probably 1 in 10,000 or something.
These guys are helping to continue the mission that all pilots should be there for - that's why you dont bash them.
 
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