Swept Wing Jets

Romulus said:
I have no time in Jets so I can't answer your specific question, but I wonder if somebody is giving you the old "I can do this but you can't" attitude that sometimes happens in our industry.
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That's annoying but happens in pretty much every sector of this industry. Drives me nuts - none of this stuff is so hard that the average fellow couldn't figure it out.
 
A-300F4-622R said:
Especially flying the turtle... MD-11.
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MD-11 handles just like a 727 that weighs 630,000 pounds. Just combine 727 handling qualities with a large widebody with approach speeds of 170kts and you understand the dynamic. As a result, it is like a 727, but with the higher speeds and inertia.
 
ppragman said:
That's annoying but happens in pretty much every sector of this industry. Drives me nuts - none of this stuff is so hard that the average fellow couldn't figure it out.
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Back in the way back machine, when I was working as a line guy at Corporate Jets FBO at KSDL, I was servicing an L-1329. After taking new refreshments and catering onboard, I looked forward into the cockpit and one of the pilots was sitting in there fiddling with the navigation system. I got his attention to let him know the supplies had been placed aboard, and then asked him how fun it was to fly this bird? His reply was "what do you care, you're probably never going to see the cockpit of one.."
 
The biggest difference that I've seen is that the damn things won't slow down. Throw in anti icing and you're stuck with the air brake out going 300kts and still begging to lose altitude.
 
MikeD said:
Back in the way back machine, when I was working as a line guy at Corporate Jets FBO at KSDL, I was servicing an L-1329. After taking new refreshments and catering onboard, I looked forward into the cockpit and one of the pilots was sitting in there fiddling with the navigation system. I got his attention to let him know the supplies had been placed aboard, and then asked him how fun it was to fly this bird? His reply was "what do you care, you're probably never going to see the cockpit of one.."
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God damn... That's messed up.
 
I think no matter what the wing sweep, you fly the jet by the numbers they tell you to and you won't have a problem. My first swept wing jet was a 727 and it flew just like any other plane. Not sure what the big deal is all about. But I never tried to stall it to see what would happen, either....
 
Romulus said:
I have no time in Jets so I can't answer your specific question, but I wonder if somebody is giving you the old "I can do this but you can't" attitude that sometimes happens in our industry.
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Likely. The X scrapes wingtips and lots of guys did it. So they re-geared the ailerons. Haven't heard of one scraping since. X-wing technique took a little getting used to. Pretty much what Mike D did in the 117. I liked to do that anyway so it wasn't too hard to learn. Very sensitive to wind shear. Add 10 for gusting conditions. It's nothing you can't handle.

Now follow me down a trail on my DH bike or paddle out at Ocean Beach. Well that may be different but I'm guessing you would fly the X just fine. As long as you didn't txt anyone on final.
 
dasleben said:
Polar's recommendation is a good one. Never flown a Lear, but I got into a swept wing jet at 800 hours safely. Nothing someone with proper training and guidance can't handle.
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If he (and I...) can do it, OP surely can.


Sent from Seat 3D
 
DE727UPS said:
I think no matter what the wing sweep, you fly the jet by the numbers they tell you to and you won't have a problem. My first swept wing jet was a 727 and it flew just like any other plane. Not sure what the big deal is all about. But I never tried to stall it to see what would happen, either....
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That far left side of the performance envelope -- up against the lift limit line/critical AOA -- is where all of the fun action is in a swept wing airplane anyway!
 
Bandit_Driver said:
Read what polar suggested and NEVER NEVER EVER stall a Swept wing....
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As with everything, "it depends".

In both the F-15E and the T-38, I could fly with the airplane in a full stall -- AOA indicator pegged out at its highest reading and 'flying' with simple Newtonian ram-air force on the bottom of the wing and the thrust coming out the pipes -- to Commercial CTS standards of airspeed, altitude, and heading.

In the other thread about being 'scared of the airplane' I referenced that an antidote to being scared of the airplane was to actually be able to fly it in the 'dark corners' of the flight envelope. While I don't suggest anyone go out with a Lear and practice post-accelerated-stall maneuvering in a Lear, it is proof that there is no boogey man that lives behind the stall in a swept wing aircraft. They have known and predictable stall and post-stall characteristics.

Obviously the issue is that swept wing airplanes tend to stall from the tips first, which usually renders the ailerons ineffective for roll control, which CAN lead to all sorts of unusual things (like being inverted rather quickly).
 
DE727UPS said:
I think no matter what the wing sweep, you fly the jet by the numbers they tell you to and you won't have a problem. My first swept wing jet was a 727 and it flew just like any other plane. Not sure what the big deal is all about. But I never tried to stall it to see what would happen, either....
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While I can't personally attest to this just yet, I imagine that ANY civilian plane is going to fly like every single other airplane under the sun if you fly it how the book says to. I'm sure there are some oddball exceptions though...
 
Hacker15e said:
As with everything, "it depends".

In both the F-15E and the T-38, I could fly with the airplane in a full stall -- AOA indicator pegged out at its highest reading and 'flying' with simple Newtonian ram-air force on the bottom of the wing and the thrust coming out the pipes -- to Commercial CTS standards of airspeed, altitude, and heading.

In the other thread about being 'scared of the airplane' I referenced that an antidote to being scared of the airplane was to actually be able to fly it in the 'dark corners' of the flight envelope. While I don't suggest anyone go out with a Lear and practice post-accelerated-stall maneuvering in a Lear, it is proof that there is no boogey man that lives behind the stall in a swept wing aircraft. They have known and predictable stall and post-stall characteristics.

Obviously the issue is that swept wing airplanes tend to stall from the tips first, which usually renders the ailerons ineffective for roll control, which CAN lead to all sorts of unusual things (like being inverted rather quickly).
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Fully stall most commercial transport aircraft and it will not end well. I imagine F-15 and T-38 react differently since they have so much freaking thrust available. They are so generous with the thrust to weight ratio in transport category aircraft. Without doing the math I'd wager it is probably 0.25-0.50:1
 
Bandit_Driver said:
I've gotten to watch mx work on the flap system and you can't imagine the amount of crap moving inside that wing. It is amazing that was all designed before CAD and on slide rules
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No kidding!! Arguably those were some of the best minds to ever grace engineering (1950's and 60's aerospace in general), however, both before and after.

As to the Lear, the 20/30 series can be a bit interesting to land if you have fuel in the tips (which you certainly want to try to avoid), but they really don't have much sweep. You do have to somewhat piss them off to get them to Dutch roll. However, they do have a very tiny wing, thus with high wind loading. If you fly the Lear and respect it's limitations, it's a very enjoyable jet to fly.

The later Lears, with evolutions of the Longhorn wing (starting with the 55, then the 31, and continuing with the 40/45 and 60) are significantly more docile.
 
Patrick said:
No kidding!! Arguably those were some of the best minds to ever grace engineering (1950's and 60's aerospace in general), however, both before and after.

As to the Lear, the 20/30 series can be a bit interesting to land if you have fuel in the tips (which you certainly want to try to avoid), but they really don't have much sweep. You do have to somewhat piss them off to get them to Dutch roll. However, they do have a very tiny wing, thus with high wind loading. If you fly the Lear and respect it's limitations, it's a very enjoyable jet to fly.

The later Lears, with evolutions of the Longhorn wing (starting with the 55, then the 31, and continuing with the 40/45 and 60) are significantly more docile.
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The 20 series do like to dutch roll
 
I don't know the history well enough, but I believe the advent of the "stick-pusher" system was the result of preventing so called "deep stalls" - of which swept and delta wing aircraft with T-tails were especially susceptible to entering (due to the low pressure wake from the top of the wing 'blocking' the airflow to the horizontal stabilizer and rendering the elevators ineffective).

ppragman said:
Also, if you're not flying an oblique wing, then I don't think you have anything to fear:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_AD-1

;-)
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I've actually seen that airplane in person! It's hanging from the ceiling at the Hiller Aviation Museum in San Carlos (south of SFO). Super underrated museum that place is!

To add to your comment, I would say at least an oblique wing is a wing at all! ;)
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifting_body
 
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