Swept Wing Jets

troopernflight

troopernflight

Well-Known Member
I've been flying in a Citation Encore for about a year and a half. I've been trying to work my way into a Lear jet but I was told with my low hours that I was not ready to do that yet. (Not disagreeing) I've gotten bits and pieces about how swept wing jets are a different animal and carry more potential dangers than a straight wing jet. The impression I got was that you could bend metal a lot easier in a Lear than a Citation. I'm still a little unclear as to the major differences and hazards associated with swept wings. What is it about them that is different and requires more experience to be able to handle? Are they more difficult to fly and what things would you need to focus more attention to as opposed to a straight wing jet? Just looking for a little clarification. Thanks.
 
Polar's recommendation is a good one. Never flown a Lear, but I got into a swept wing jet at 800 hours safely. Nothing someone with proper training and guidance can't handle.
 
From what I've heard when it comes to Lears, comes from the 25/35 series more then any thing. I've heard people say they have a tendency to dutch roll on final and that makes it really easy to catch a tip tank. Clay Lacy had a pile beside one of the hangars back in the day of banged up tip tanks. Now the Lear 45, I've got about 1,000 hours in seem pretty docile comparatively. There really aren't any gotchas as long as your spooled and on speed. The ref speeds in swept wings are going to be higher than a straight wing, so maybe it's the speed they think is an issue.
 
PositionAndHold said:
From what I've heard when it comes to Lears, comes from the 25/35 series more then any thing. I've heard people say they have a tendency to dutch roll on final and that makes it really easy to catch a tip tank. Clay Lacy had a pile beside one of the hangars back in the day of banged up tip tanks. Now the Lear 45, I've got about 1,000 hours in seem pretty docile comparatively. There really aren't any gotchas as long as your spooled and on speed. The ref speeds in swept wings are going to be higher than a straight wing, so maybe it's the speed they think is an issue.
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The lear 20/30's keep you very active on approach and in winds. The tip tanks are easy to catch and you have to constantly bat the high wing down when on approach and they do have higher approach speeds. They also can be squirely at high altitudes and you live in the coffin corner up there, a few know from overs speed and stall.

The 727 though with its transformer like wing had normal approach speeds and handled very well through all the regimes of flight....
 
Agree that the 35's tiny wing with big heavy tip tanks was an issue. The later Lears and BombaLears barely have any sweep at all. They are docile at approach speed and have 50 knots between high and low speed buffet at cruise.
 
13 degrees isn't much of a sweep. I've got over 4000 hours in all models of 20 and 30 series Learjets, flying cancelled checks back in the day. I found them easy to fly and very nice handling. Most the horror stories about old Learjets come from pilots who are scared of it. Respect it's TRUE limitations and fly it right up to those and you have a fantastic performing jet.
 
dasleben said:
Polar's recommendation is a good one. Never flown a Lear, but I got into a swept wing jet at 800 hours safely. Nothing someone with proper training and guidance can't handle.
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Key is proper training. First, will say that the Lear does not much sweep, not the effects of the sweep are less than some other issues. As for higher sweep, it is important to really understand the dynamics. Now, you can "get away" with pretty much the same techniques as other aircraft 99.9% of the time, but if you find yourself in that last little corner-point, those same habits that seemed so reliable will kill you -- fast.
 
seagull said:
Key is proper training. First, will say that the Lear does not much sweep, not the effects of the sweep are less than some other issues. As for higher sweep, it is important to really understand the dynamics. Now, you can "get away" with pretty much the same techniques as other aircraft 99.9% of the time, but if you find yourself in that last little corner-point, those same habits that seemed so reliable will kill you -- fast.
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Especially flying the turtle... MD-11.
 
Perfect way to describe it, Bandit. I'm just old enough that some of my memorable early flights were on 727s...I'd always get a window seat so I could watch the magic transformers wing. Now when I travel, I'm usually stuck in a CRJ, the wing of which is about as exciting as watching paint dry.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Perfect way to describe it, Bandit. I'm just old enough that some of my memorable early flights were on 727s...I'd always get a window seat so I could watch the magic transformers wing. Now when I travel, I'm usually stuck in a CRJ, the wing of which is about as exciting as watching paint dry.
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The wing is about all you can see anyway, since the window is at your waist.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
37 degree sweep

Krueger flaps
Slats
Triple Slotted Fowler Flaps 40 degrees worth...

The darn wing disassembles on approach
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F-117. 67.5 degree permanent sweep. No slats, no flaps. Pretty much what kept us flying Category E instrument approach mins.

Also, crosswind landings had to be done with a crab all the way to touchdown. There is no such thing as the "wing-low method", lest you want to stall the jet. Just as there's no such thing as aerodynamic braking on rollout.
 
troopernflight said:
What is it about them that is different and requires more experience to be able to handle? Thanks.
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I have no time in Jets so I can't answer your specific question, but I wonder if somebody is giving you the old "I can do this but you can't" attitude that sometimes happens in our industry.
 
Romulus said:
I have no time in Jets so I can't answer your specific question, but I wonder if somebody is giving you the old "I can do this but you can't" attitude that sometimes happens in our industry.
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When you stop suspecting that, you'll be ready to fly a swept wing jet. If that sounds harsh, understand that I was no different. When I was a CFI, I was sure that I'd seen it all and could easily fly that Starcheck Baron through all the supposedly terrifying weather those nancies went through with their "big" paychecks. When I was flying freight in a Baron, I was sure that all those turbine guys were on easy street, up there over the weather. When I was flying an MU-2, I was 100% convinced that jets were for Nancies (well, they kind of are, but there was definitely stuff I didn't know when I found myself in a jet). And when I went from the vaunted left seat of a swept-wing jet to mere turboprop air-ambo, I was sure that a Sky-God like myself would find few challenges. Wrong on all counts. Every time. I very much intend to take that knowledge in to my next job (if there is a next job). If you think you know everything you need to know, you can pretty sure that you're wrong. Every time.
 
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