SWA overrun NTSB preliminary facts.

The problem is that you're leaving a somewhat plowed, improved surface with some braking action to an uneven unplowed surface with a chance of zero braking action, maybe even filled with other suprises to impact during your deceleration -- which compounds the situation.

There was an MD-80 in CMH that landed off the runway that was probably 15 feet from a complete hull loss, if not multiple injuries/fatalities about a year ago.

Your best bet, under most circumstances, in my opinion, is to stay on the runway surface.
 
Doug Taylor said:
The problem is that you're leaving a somewhat plowed, improved surface with some braking action to an uneven unplowed surface with a chance of zero braking action, maybe even filled with other suprises to impact during your deceleration -- which compounds the situation.

There was an MD-80 in CMH that landed off the runway that was probably 15 feet from a complete hull loss, if not multiple injuries/fatalities about a year ago.

Your best bet, under most circumstances, in my opinion, is to stay on the runway surface.
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if you've got collapsible blocks or a large runoff area without buildings/cars/trees I'd agree.
 
I haven't seen any of that stuff at a major airport.

Lets put it this way, transport category aircract are so sensitive to surface that the centerline lights go "BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! and shake the bejezus out of the cockpit during takeoff" I betchya if you went offroading, it's going to shear the gear off, hopefully simultaenously.
 
Doug Taylor said:
On the news here in PHX, they have a small newsticker that scrolls on the bottom of the screen. l think I've seen the most thought-inspiring, objective news nugget today:

"Airplane experts say that jet involved in deadly crash needed more runway to land"

Thank you channel 12... I'm sure your reporters were up late fact-checking THAT one. Bonuses all around.
Click to expand...

Have you seen the new commercials? Goes something like this:

"It's coming...to give you more acurate up to the minute more predictable weather. Doppler 7000 (don't actually know the real name)...stay tuned weather in PHX will never be the same!

-Matthew
 
We really don't need meterologists in PHX except for our two month period of a 'seasonal change in winds' which is mislabeled "Monsoon Season".
 
Doug Taylor said:
We really don't need meterologists in PHX except for our two month period of a 'seasonal change in winds' which is mislabeled "Monsoon Season".
Click to expand...

Agreed...the meterology segments on local news here need only be 5 secs long if not shorter.

"Its going to be hot today people. Hotter then yesterday."

Then sit back down next to the anchors and crack chessy anecdotes.

-Matthew
 
"I'm Brad Perry!"

So...Stop dancing and making a fool of yourself for "The Man". :)
 
Doug Taylor said:
I'm not sure why the media (not the NTSB) is focusing on thrust reversers. As none of the calculated landing distances are based upon thrust reverser deployment. They really don't do much besides make a lot of noise on most aircraft.
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I have heard you say this several times before. In my very *limited* knowledge of big steel. I'd think that thrust reversers would be very beneficial in assiting a plane flying 120-140 knts. to stop in a short distance. By redirecting engine thrust. At least in normal conditions on a standard runway.

-Matthew
 
It really depends. The -88 has 'clamshells' where most of the benefit of reverse thrust comes not from the actual thrust, but from the parasitic drag of the open clamshells. Idle reverse provides some deceleration (not a lot), but running up the engines in reverse thrust provides some deceleration and a lot more noise. Let's put it this way, you get way more braking out of a light tap of the brakes than you do with a high EPR reverse thrust operation in my opinion.

On the MD-90 with the high-bypass V2500's (chicks dig 'em!), it uses a 'sleeve' type reverser. As you enter reverse, it actually wants to maintain the pitch of the aircraft (thrust vectoring coupled with the T-tail I guess)so if you enter reverse with the nosewheel off the runway, you have to force the nosewheel onto the runway so you can effectively brake. Yet again, the difference in idle "reverse unlock" and a yank'em-all-the-way-back 1.4 (1.5?) EPR reverse event isn't that much of a difference as far as I've seen.

They provide some braking, not nearly as much as light braking on the -88 and certainly not as much as light braking on the -90 with the carbon-fiber monster brakes. The rule of thumb is that if you don't use them, the NTSB is going to say, "Ah HA! the pilots didn't use reverse thrust, pilot error!" even though no landing distance charts take into account the usage of reversers.

Too much information? ;)
 
Philip said:
then what do you do? Sit with your hands in your lap skidding along?
Click to expand...

How about boeing "dorifto" onto a taxiway? You know, slide sideways onto a taxiway? You might also know the term as powersliding maybe, if you're old school? Ah nevermind, I'll go sit in a corner and shut up. :D That would be quite the site to see though.
 
Doug Taylor said:
It really depends. The -88 has 'clamshells' where most of the benefit of reverse thrust comes not from the actual thrust, but from the parasitic drag of the open clamshells. Idle reverse provides some deceleration (not a lot), but running up the engines in reverse thrust provides some deceleration and a lot more noise. Let's put it this way, you get way more braking out of a light tap of the brakes than you do with a high EPR reverse thrust operation in my opinion.

On the MD-90 with the high-bypass V2500's (chicks dig 'em!), it uses a 'sleeve' type reverser. As you enter reverse, it actually wants to maintain the pitch of the aircraft (thrust vectoring coupled with the T-tail I guess)so if you enter reverse with the nosewheel off the runway, you have to force the nosewheel onto the runway so you can effectively brake. Yet again, the difference in idle "reverse unlock" and a yank'em-all-the-way-back 1.4 (1.5?) EPR reverse event isn't that much of a difference as far as I've seen.

They provide some braking, not nearly as much as light braking on the -88 and certainly not as much as light braking on the -90 with the carbon-fiber monster brakes. The rule of thumb is that if you don't use them, the NTSB is going to say, "Ah HA! the pilots didn't use reverse thrust, pilot error!" even though no landing distance charts take into account the usage of reversers.

Too much information? ;)
Click to expand...

Nope.It was all good! Now maybe you could explain decent planning and why you say you don't like using the "boards" to get a faster rate of decent.

:)

-Matthew
 
The 'boards' are more or less symbolic of a miscalculation of your descent planning, or correcting for an ATC screw-up in my opinion.

What's the point of burning all of that Jet-A to waste it all with speedbrakes? :) Plus, they make a lot of noise, make my coffee slosh around in the cupholder and you have to remember to stow them.

But as a rule of thumb on the 737-200, whenever ATC said, "Cross BITHO at..." before he finishes the sentence you were already dialing in a descent and pulling out the boards because the -200 did NOT like to descend.
 
Doug Taylor said:
The 'boards' are more or less symbolic of a miscalculation of your descent planning, or correcting for an ATC screw-up in my opinion.

What's the point of burning all of that Jet-A to waste it all with speedbrakes? :) Plus, they make a lot of noise, make my coffee slosh around in the cupholder and you have to remember to stow them.

But as a rule of thumb on the 737-200, whenever ATC said, "Cross BITHO at..." before he finishes the sentence you were already dialing in a descent and pulling out the boards because the -200 did NOT like to descend.
Click to expand...

I'll always remember you saying that when I become an airline pilot. Cause I could totally see myself being lazy and putting the boards out instead of decent planning.
And you can bet if I ever fly in the back of a plane your flying (flying DL a lot next year) and I see those boards come out for decent your never gonna hear the end of it. And if you get me to CVG early and I have to wait an extra ten minutes for Lance or Everett to pick me up expect me to bitch and complain to you about that!

:)

-Matthew
 
decent
(d
emacr.gif
prime.gif
s
schwa.gif
nt) adj.
1. Characterized by conformity to recognized standards of propriety or morality.
2. Free from indelicacy; modest.
3. Meeting accepted standards; adequate: a decent salary.
4. a. Morally upright; respectable.
b. Kind or obliging: very decent of them to lend you money.

5. Informal Properly or modestly dressed.


descent
(d
ibreve.gif
-s
ebreve.gif
nt
prime.gif
) n.
1. The act or an instance of descending.
2. A way down.
3. A downward incline or passage; a slope.
4. a. Hereditary derivation; lineage: a person of African descent.
b. One generation of a specific lineage.

5. a. The fact or process of coming down or being derived from a source: a paper tracing the descent of the novel from old picaresque tales.
b. Development in form or structure during transmission from an original source.

6. Law Transference of property by inheritance.
7. A lowering or decline, as in status or level: Her career went into a rapid descent after the charges of misconduct.
8. A sudden visit or attack; an onslaught.


:)

.
 
SteveC said:
decent
(d
emacr.gif
prime.gif
s
schwa.gif
nt) adj.
1. Characterized by conformity to recognized standards of propriety or morality.
2. Free from indelicacy; modest.
3. Meeting accepted standards; adequate: a decent salary.
4. a. Morally upright; respectable.
b. Kind or obliging: very decent of them to lend you money.

5. Informal Properly or modestly dressed.


descent
(d
ibreve.gif
-s
ebreve.gif
nt
prime.gif
) n.
1. The act or an instance of descending.
2. A way down.
3. A downward incline or passage; a slope.
4. a. Hereditary derivation; lineage: a person of African descent.
b. One generation of a specific lineage.

5. a. The fact or process of coming down or being derived from a source: a paper tracing the descent of the novel from old picaresque tales.
b. Development in form or structure during transmission from an original source.

6. Law Transference of property by inheritance.
7. A lowering or decline, as in status or level: Her career went into a rapid descent after the charges of misconduct.
8. A sudden visit or attack; an onslaught.


:)

.
Click to expand...

Well we can always count on you can't we Steve! Thanks for the correction!

:)

-Matthew
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Well we can always count on you can't we Steve! Thanks for the correction!

:)

-Matthew
Click to expand...
That's the only reason they let me hang out here, you know. I'm a Grammar Goon Squad wannabe, and chief groupie! :)


.
 
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