av8trxx
Well-Known Member
Now that SWA is going to PIT, anyone wonder how long US will be able to hang on?
http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/press/prindex.html
http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/press/prindex.html
SWA in PIT
- Thread starter av8trxx
- Start date
Ecl!pse
Well-Known Member
I dunno that their hub here really would make or brake them. They've played with the idea of letting go here, and I think last year they sold 40 of their 50 gates here. But, if they do come here and US Air is still alive, I think they may actually have trouble. It seems that most people around here don't really like change. I think people are so attached to US Airways (maybe not anymore after the bags fiasco) that they may hold on until the bitter end....then agian, it could be the exact opposite! Either way, I think it will be good, but the 737 will still be a familiar face! Need more heavies!
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Pitt. might actually be good for WN. I believe they only have five gates down in PHL. So there is a much better opportunity for them in Pitt with US AIRWAYS having sold 40-50 gates. My question is can WN do well with serving two airports in the same state?
When I worked for DL in CVG WN made there money because people would drive to CMH or SDF to catch a flight such was the allure of WN in that area.
Some might caution me to say look at LAX,SNA,ONT,BUR etc. so dunno only time will tell. But WN. researches there expansion very carefully so they much feel it's right.
-Matthew
When I worked for DL in CVG WN made there money because people would drive to CMH or SDF to catch a flight such was the allure of WN in that area.
Some might caution me to say look at LAX,SNA,ONT,BUR etc. so dunno only time will tell. But WN. researches there expansion very carefully so they much feel it's right.
-Matthew
FL270
New Member
Actually, if the truth be told, this is a mercy shot from SWA. If Herb & Co. really wanted to kill them they'd have gone to CLT next. Of course, there's not really any gate space at CLT, whereas PIT has tons of it.
Remember that PIT is a tiny nugget in the Airways puzzle now, it having been reduced to about a third of its pre-9/11 size. PHL hurts more than PIT will.
I don't think this actually hurts US all that badly, and here's why. PHL is a connecting hub for the Northeast and to feed the Caribbean and European system. US doesn't make a large portion of their money flying domestic passengers at PHL so SWA is just lowering yields on an already low-yield, money-losing operation anyway. They are still making bank at PHL on the Caribbean and European networks.
Same applies at FLL when they open that next month. They won't make a lot of money flying the sun-chasers down there competing against SWA, but the connections to Latin America are where there is a profit to be made.
Then there's CLT, the only true "fortress" hub US has, and by far their largest station with 500+ flights per day and additional growth on the horizon ... they're going from eight to nine daily connecting banks in February. Very little competition there, either, as the only LCC presence is Independence (admittedly, CLT is reportedly one of their most successful markets along with PIT) and ATA. AirTran, Southwest, Frontier, JetBlue, and America West have all steered clear.
It's not pretty right now, but there is a lot that US has going for it that many people don't realize, because they are nearly invisible west of the Mississippi.
Of course, I could be wrong. But we'll see. In any case, lest people forget, they've been declared dead more than once in the past only to bounce back.
Remember that PIT is a tiny nugget in the Airways puzzle now, it having been reduced to about a third of its pre-9/11 size. PHL hurts more than PIT will.
I don't think this actually hurts US all that badly, and here's why. PHL is a connecting hub for the Northeast and to feed the Caribbean and European system. US doesn't make a large portion of their money flying domestic passengers at PHL so SWA is just lowering yields on an already low-yield, money-losing operation anyway. They are still making bank at PHL on the Caribbean and European networks.
Same applies at FLL when they open that next month. They won't make a lot of money flying the sun-chasers down there competing against SWA, but the connections to Latin America are where there is a profit to be made.
Then there's CLT, the only true "fortress" hub US has, and by far their largest station with 500+ flights per day and additional growth on the horizon ... they're going from eight to nine daily connecting banks in February. Very little competition there, either, as the only LCC presence is Independence (admittedly, CLT is reportedly one of their most successful markets along with PIT) and ATA. AirTran, Southwest, Frontier, JetBlue, and America West have all steered clear.
It's not pretty right now, but there is a lot that US has going for it that many people don't realize, because they are nearly invisible west of the Mississippi.
Of course, I could be wrong. But we'll see. In any case, lest people forget, they've been declared dead more than once in the past only to bounce back.
flyover
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
Then there's CLT, the only true "fortress" hub US has, and by far their largest station with 500+ flights per day and additional growth on the horizon ... they're going from eight to nine daily connecting banks in February. , Very little competition there either, as the only LCC presence is Independence (admittedly, CLT is reportedly one of their most successful markets along with PIT) and ATA. AirTran, Southwest, Frontier, JetBlue, and America West have all steered clear.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is one of the biggest misconceptions in aviation. USAir has tremendous competition at CLT. CLT is virtually a mirror operation of ATL. Delta is USAir's biggest competitor and they just reduced fares across the board. That means that for virtually every city pair served through CLT they will have to match Delta. And that will be most of them.
There simply isn't any such thing in this country as a fortress hub with very little competition. Certainly not on the east coast. The closest thing to it might be MSP for Northwest and it is one of the reasons they have been a little more successful than most lately.
But USAir has had their territory covered coming and going. SWA had already squarely targeted them in BWI and PHL. Now Delta is attacking their revenue base across the whole east coast.
Why do you think the LCCs have steered clear of CLT? Because it is well down the list of desirable markets. It's only real value is it's position between the northeast and southeast as a connecting point.
If USAir shutters that hub you will see carriers like SWA come in. But I don't think you will ever see anyone put another hub there. Not as long as ATL dominates that region.
If you don't think USAir has competition at CLT I challenge you to go to a reservation site and start putting in any city pairs that USAir serves through CLT. You will get at least 3 other airlines offering service on every one of them. Usually it will be more like 5.
Then there's CLT, the only true "fortress" hub US has, and by far their largest station with 500+ flights per day and additional growth on the horizon ... they're going from eight to nine daily connecting banks in February. , Very little competition there either, as the only LCC presence is Independence (admittedly, CLT is reportedly one of their most successful markets along with PIT) and ATA. AirTran, Southwest, Frontier, JetBlue, and America West have all steered clear.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is one of the biggest misconceptions in aviation. USAir has tremendous competition at CLT. CLT is virtually a mirror operation of ATL. Delta is USAir's biggest competitor and they just reduced fares across the board. That means that for virtually every city pair served through CLT they will have to match Delta. And that will be most of them.
There simply isn't any such thing in this country as a fortress hub with very little competition. Certainly not on the east coast. The closest thing to it might be MSP for Northwest and it is one of the reasons they have been a little more successful than most lately.
But USAir has had their territory covered coming and going. SWA had already squarely targeted them in BWI and PHL. Now Delta is attacking their revenue base across the whole east coast.
Why do you think the LCCs have steered clear of CLT? Because it is well down the list of desirable markets. It's only real value is it's position between the northeast and southeast as a connecting point.
If USAir shutters that hub you will see carriers like SWA come in. But I don't think you will ever see anyone put another hub there. Not as long as ATL dominates that region.
If you don't think USAir has competition at CLT I challenge you to go to a reservation site and start putting in any city pairs that USAir serves through CLT. You will get at least 3 other airlines offering service on every one of them. Usually it will be more like 5.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
[ QUOTE ]
There simply isn't any such thing in this country as a fortress hub with very little competition. Certainly not on the east coast. The closest thing to it might be MSP for Northwest and it is one of the reasons they have been a little more successful than most lately.
[/ QUOTE ]
Though it's barely a hub, MEM is more or less a fortress hub for NWA. Sure, DAL and CAL are there, but most of the flights bought on DAL and CAL ticketstock are NWA codeshare flights. AirTran doesn't have a lot of flights, America West has three, and every last one of those (except for AirTran) are all RJs. United has nothing but RJs flying in and out, HP is a CRJ-900, America has one MD-80 first thing in the morning, CAL just pulled their 737 from MEM service (leaving MEM 100% XJT) , and DAL is all Comair with maybe a couple of Chautauqua flights. US Air is mainly Mid-Atlantic with like one or two PSA RJs. The only airline that flies anything bigger is NWA with their several Airbuses, some DC-9s and the DC-10. Well, FedEx but they don't count.
There simply isn't any such thing in this country as a fortress hub with very little competition. Certainly not on the east coast. The closest thing to it might be MSP for Northwest and it is one of the reasons they have been a little more successful than most lately.
[/ QUOTE ]
Though it's barely a hub, MEM is more or less a fortress hub for NWA. Sure, DAL and CAL are there, but most of the flights bought on DAL and CAL ticketstock are NWA codeshare flights. AirTran doesn't have a lot of flights, America West has three, and every last one of those (except for AirTran) are all RJs. United has nothing but RJs flying in and out, HP is a CRJ-900, America has one MD-80 first thing in the morning, CAL just pulled their 737 from MEM service (leaving MEM 100% XJT) , and DAL is all Comair with maybe a couple of Chautauqua flights. US Air is mainly Mid-Atlantic with like one or two PSA RJs. The only airline that flies anything bigger is NWA with their several Airbuses, some DC-9s and the DC-10. Well, FedEx but they don't count.
av8trxx
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think the LCCs have steered clear of CLT? Because it is well down the list of desirable markets. It's only real value is it's position between the northeast and southeast as a connecting point..
[/ QUOTE ]
True. SWA does very well at RDU and BWI for a connecting points, so it has even less value to them for that purpose.
Why do you think the LCCs have steered clear of CLT? Because it is well down the list of desirable markets. It's only real value is it's position between the northeast and southeast as a connecting point..
[/ QUOTE ]
True. SWA does very well at RDU and BWI for a connecting points, so it has even less value to them for that purpose.
FL270
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
CLT is virtually a mirror operation of ATL. Delta is USAir's biggest competitor and they just reduced fares across the board. That means that for virtually every city pair served through CLT they will have to match Delta. And that will be most of them.
[/ QUOTE ]I beg to differ. The operation certainly has some overlap with the Delta ATL hub, of course, but there are substantial differences as well. DL runs much more west coast and Europe out of ATL than does Airways from CLT while Airways goes to more Caribbean destinations.[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think the LCCs have steered clear of CLT? Because it is well down the list of desirable markets. It's only real value is it's position between the northeast and southeast as a connecting point.
[/ QUOTE ]Tell that to the city. The city of Charlotte is more populous than the city of Atlanta (though the latter has a larger metro area). Charlotte is second only to New York as the largest banking and financial center in the country, and is headquarters to two of the world's largest banks. LCCs have mostly steered clear because of a distinct lack of available gate space. There is not a lack of demand for air travel, but 500 flights a day covers that demand quite nicely on US. Look at Houston ... the fourth largest city in the United States is WOEFULLY underserved by other carriers, but the massive Continental hub at IAH and Southwest's not-insignificant HOU operation more or less blanket the market. That doesn't mean there's not demand there, just that the mega-hubs meet that demand for the most part.[ QUOTE ]
If USAir shutters that hub you will see carriers like SWA come in. But I don't think you will ever see anyone put another hub there. Not as long as ATL dominates that region.
[/ QUOTE ]On the contrary. The existence of ATL is precisely why CLT is perfect for a competing hub. You can't compete directly in ATL due to terminal and airport congestion, but a large southeastern city with the airspace and terminal capacity to support a large hub operation, not to mention a fairly significant demand for O&D traffic, offers a fantastic opportunity to compete for an airline that wished to do so. And somebody would, perhaps not immediately, but soon.[ QUOTE ]
If you don't think USAir has competition at CLT I challenge you to go to a reservation site and start putting in any city pairs that USAir serves through CLT. You will get at least 3 other airlines offering service on every one of them. Usually it will be more like 5.
[/ QUOTE ]This is a specious task. Put almost any city pair in there, unless one end of it is a market with monopoly or near-monopoly service by a single carrier (EAS markets for example) and you'll get the same result. BOS-SEA, for example. DL via CVG/ATL/SLC, AA via ORD/DFW/STL, UA via IAD/ORD/DEN/SFO, NW via DTW/MSP, CO via EWR/IAH/CLE, US via PHL/CLT, AWA via PHX, and the list goes on. MHT-MSY, ROC-MIA, MKE-PNS ... same routine. Now start talking LBB, OAJ, MCN, ATW, SBA, etc., you'll get fewer options.
The point is that the existence of competition does not make a hub impractical or unprofitable in and of itself. See my earlier post re: SWA in PHL. Southwest doesn't really cut in to US's money-making markets in Philly. In Baltimore, which was strictly a domestic hub in its day, they did, and it was abandoned. SWA isn't going to take anybody to Punta Cana or Paris or St. Maarten or Madrid.
CLT is virtually a mirror operation of ATL. Delta is USAir's biggest competitor and they just reduced fares across the board. That means that for virtually every city pair served through CLT they will have to match Delta. And that will be most of them.
[/ QUOTE ]I beg to differ. The operation certainly has some overlap with the Delta ATL hub, of course, but there are substantial differences as well. DL runs much more west coast and Europe out of ATL than does Airways from CLT while Airways goes to more Caribbean destinations.[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think the LCCs have steered clear of CLT? Because it is well down the list of desirable markets. It's only real value is it's position between the northeast and southeast as a connecting point.
[/ QUOTE ]Tell that to the city. The city of Charlotte is more populous than the city of Atlanta (though the latter has a larger metro area). Charlotte is second only to New York as the largest banking and financial center in the country, and is headquarters to two of the world's largest banks. LCCs have mostly steered clear because of a distinct lack of available gate space. There is not a lack of demand for air travel, but 500 flights a day covers that demand quite nicely on US. Look at Houston ... the fourth largest city in the United States is WOEFULLY underserved by other carriers, but the massive Continental hub at IAH and Southwest's not-insignificant HOU operation more or less blanket the market. That doesn't mean there's not demand there, just that the mega-hubs meet that demand for the most part.[ QUOTE ]
If USAir shutters that hub you will see carriers like SWA come in. But I don't think you will ever see anyone put another hub there. Not as long as ATL dominates that region.
[/ QUOTE ]On the contrary. The existence of ATL is precisely why CLT is perfect for a competing hub. You can't compete directly in ATL due to terminal and airport congestion, but a large southeastern city with the airspace and terminal capacity to support a large hub operation, not to mention a fairly significant demand for O&D traffic, offers a fantastic opportunity to compete for an airline that wished to do so. And somebody would, perhaps not immediately, but soon.[ QUOTE ]
If you don't think USAir has competition at CLT I challenge you to go to a reservation site and start putting in any city pairs that USAir serves through CLT. You will get at least 3 other airlines offering service on every one of them. Usually it will be more like 5.
[/ QUOTE ]This is a specious task. Put almost any city pair in there, unless one end of it is a market with monopoly or near-monopoly service by a single carrier (EAS markets for example) and you'll get the same result. BOS-SEA, for example. DL via CVG/ATL/SLC, AA via ORD/DFW/STL, UA via IAD/ORD/DEN/SFO, NW via DTW/MSP, CO via EWR/IAH/CLE, US via PHL/CLT, AWA via PHX, and the list goes on. MHT-MSY, ROC-MIA, MKE-PNS ... same routine. Now start talking LBB, OAJ, MCN, ATW, SBA, etc., you'll get fewer options.
The point is that the existence of competition does not make a hub impractical or unprofitable in and of itself. See my earlier post re: SWA in PHL. Southwest doesn't really cut in to US's money-making markets in Philly. In Baltimore, which was strictly a domestic hub in its day, they did, and it was abandoned. SWA isn't going to take anybody to Punta Cana or Paris or St. Maarten or Madrid.
flyover
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
[The point is that the existence of competition does not make a hub impractical or unprofitable in and of itself.
[/ QUOTE ]
This industry is way over-hubbed. It is the existence of so many hubs that spawned the regional airline boom. So many hubs serving the same city-pairs means to have any frequency (so you can be competitive) you have to fly small (high seat mile cost) airplanes. It's this competition that has impacted legacies the most, not LCCs. The future of the industry depends on less competition, as far as hub service, not more.
[The point is that the existence of competition does not make a hub impractical or unprofitable in and of itself.
[/ QUOTE ]
This industry is way over-hubbed. It is the existence of so many hubs that spawned the regional airline boom. So many hubs serving the same city-pairs means to have any frequency (so you can be competitive) you have to fly small (high seat mile cost) airplanes. It's this competition that has impacted legacies the most, not LCCs. The future of the industry depends on less competition, as far as hub service, not more.
