SWA Diversion to DAL, First-Hand Account

[B767Driver]

Thank-you, realms. The problem I have is when people (and especially PILOTS, for godsake) get on the Internet and start spewing opinons about what happened in an aircraft accident/incident.

They are often universally wrong, sometimes laughably so, as this thread indicates. All it takes is one uniformed opinion (like "fan burst") to set off a whole B.S. discussion about cowl containment, blade shrapnel, etc., etc.

And off the herd goes on their merry way. Pilots are supposed to know better and not act like a bunch of uninformed yellow journalists.

Again, that, perhaps, is a measure of the general experience level of the board. Its nothing about 20 years and 10,000 hours in aviation can't cure.

I'd like to chime in.

I think threads like this on Jetcareers.com are a good thing. A lot of learning can take place. Some very valuable learning at that.

Folks here are on their way to 20 years and lots of hours...and they, and me, learn a tremendous amount by discussing these types of topics. This isn't the CBS Evening News...it's a specialized forum...where these types of topics are appropriate. We may not know what happened...but I don't see any problem with discussing various theories.

Doug calls this his "living room". I think of it as "hangar" where you can "kick the tires" and learn from others. Think of everyone who just heard the phrase "disk burst" for the first time or saw an uncontained engine failure. Think of all those people out there right now researching those topics. I think it's a positive.

If there is false information in a thread...it's going to get called out...and we'll all learn.

I've been a CFI since 1991. Several years ago Seagull pointed out some inadequacies in my understandings of aerodynamics. (It's actually what the FAA teaches...the FAA presents pilots with a lot of half truths in the interest of brevity.) It led me on quite a journey of fluid dynamics and engineering aerodynamics. I can now say I've got a pretty good idea of what causes an airplane to fly. If I felt intimidated to post...I probably wouldn't have gone on that journey.

Velo's aggressive and that's fine. He's not going to make you feel good...that's fine too...there are people like that. You've got to have thick skin and not let it bother you. Everyone is going to be in the cockpit with Velo someday...you've got to have the self confidence to be your own man and not let it distract you.

This is where experience is a key factor. A low timer...even though technically proficient...may have a hard time interacting with this type of behavior model. Same thing on the other side of the spectrum...a low timer may not be able to take a "blowoff" captain and bring him back to a professional position.

A good co-pilot will ensure that he is able to keep the captain within a standard deviation of acceptable operating behavior. If he is unable...he needs to have the experience and confidence to stop the show.

Carry on.

 

[Dugie8]

I don't have a 737 type (does an SIC type count?), but here's my take:

No, what you're seeing is the N1 fan, or what's left of it. There's only one stage, then the stators that deflect outer air out the rear of the cowl, and inner to the gas generator. There's supposed to be a center cone. Don't know if it let loose and caused the damage or if it departed the scene as a result of whatever chewed up the rest of the fan.

Pretty gnarly!

Yup your right. I was looking at that band of "plastic" on the inside of the cowl that the N1 rotates within, it looked like those blades were behind it. The CFMs on the DC8 had a booster section just aft of the N1, those pics kind of looked like it but more closely you can see the blades are the diameter of the inside of the cowling.

Gnarly is damn right, bet the fat is still jiggling after that vibration.

 

[Champcar]

Thank-you, realms. The problem I have is when people (and especially PILOTS, for godsake) get on the Internet and start spewing opinons about what happened in an aircraft accident/incident.

They are often universally wrong, sometimes laughably so, as this thread indicates. All it takes is one uniformed opinion (like "fan burst") to set off a whole B.S. discussion about cowl containment, blade shrapnel, etc., etc.

And off the herd goes on their merry way. Pilots are supposed to know better and not act like a bunch of uninformed yellow journalists.

Again, that, perhaps, is a measure of the general experience level of the board. Its nothing about 20 years and 10,000 hours in aviation can't cure. Hopefully, they'll take the time to read the investigation when it finally comes out and discover how wrong they were. And at that point resolve never to get into a public debate about the causes of aircraft accidents again, especially when the founding post is based on an account by someone so obviously unfamiliar with aircraft engine/pressurization systems.

You want an illustration. Read the Mach 3.18 breakup post and compare it the the first one in this thread. One is written by an expert aviator, the other is written by some hysterical F/A who's just happy to be alive. Ask yourself which one is more credible?

Well aren't you Mr Perfect.

 

[n77j]

I'd like to chime in.

I think threads like this on Jetcareers.com are a good thing. A lot of learning can take place. Some very valuable learning at that.

Folks here are on their way to 20 years and lots of hours...and they, and me, learn a tremendous amount by discussing these types of topics. This isn't the CBS Evening News...it's a specialized forum...where these types of topics are appropriate. We may not know what happened...but I don't see any problem with discussing various theories.

Doug calls this his "living room". I think of it as "hangar" where you can "kick the tires" and learn from others. Think of everyone who just heard the phrase "disk burst" for the first time or saw an uncontained engine failure. Think of all those people out there right now researching those topics. I think it's a positive.

If there is false information in a thread...it's going to get called out...and we'll all learn.

I've been a CFI since 1991. Several years ago Seagull pointed out some inadequacies in my understandings of aerodynamics. (It's actually what the FAA teaches...the FAA presents pilots with a lot of half truths in the interest of brevity.) It led me on quite a journey of fluid dynamics and engineering aerodynamics. I can now say I've got a pretty good idea of what causes an airplane to fly. If I felt intimidated to post...I probably wouldn't have gone on that journey.

Velo's aggressive and that's fine. He's not going to make you feel good...that's fine too...there are people like that. You've got to have thick skin and not let it bother you. Everyone is going to be in the cockpit with Velo someday...you've got to have the self confidence to be your own man and not let it distract you.

This is where experience is a key factor. A low timer...even though technically proficient...may have a hard time interacting with this type of behavior model. Same thing on the other side of the spectrum...a low timer may not be able to take a "blowoff" captain and bring him back to a professional position.

A good co-pilot will ensure that he is able to keep the captain within a standard deviation of acceptable operating behavior. If he is unable...he needs to have the experience and confidence to stop the show.

Carry on.

Well said B767driver.

Velo- i like some of your posts on this website and needless to say you have great experience in the field of aviation. Chicaga posted this particular story so that perhaps we can analyze and learn something from it. Nothing more. Your could have initially replied to him by simply correcting his statement. Instead the whole subject turned into an argument and bashing each other.

Over the years, i have seen many posts by Chicaga. Most of his subjects are educational and intersting to say the least. His whole intentions are to educate and have a discussion in a professional manner- just like the intention of the webmaster!

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I'd like to chime in.

I think threads like this on Jetcareers.com are a good thing. A lot of learning can take place. Some very valuable learning at that.

Folks here are on their way to 20 years and lots of hours...and they, and me, learn a tremendous amount by discussing these types of topics. This isn't the CBS Evening News...it's a specialized forum...where these types of topics are appropriate. We may not know what happened...but I don't see any problem with discussing various theories.

Doug calls this his "living room". I think of it as "hangar" where you can "kick the tires" and learn from others. Think of everyone who just heard the phrase "disk burst" for the first time or saw an uncontained engine failure. Think of all those people out there right now researching those topics. I think it's a positive.

If there is false information in a thread...it's going to get called out...and we'll all learn.

I've been a CFI since 1991. Several years ago Seagull pointed out some inadequacies in my understandings of aerodynamics. (It's actually what the FAA teaches...the FAA presents pilots with a lot of half truths in the interest of brevity.) It led me on quite a journey of fluid dynamics and engineering aerodynamics. I can now say I've got a pretty good idea of what causes an airplane to fly. If I felt intimidated to post...I probably wouldn't have gone on that journey.

Velo's aggressive and that's fine. He's not going to make you feel good...that's fine too...there are people like that. You've got to have thick skin and not let it bother you. Everyone is going to be in the cockpit with Velo someday...you've got to have the self confidence to be your own man and not let it distract you.

This is where experience is a key factor. A low timer...even though technically proficient...may have a hard time interacting with this type of behavior model. Same thing on the other side of the spectrum...a low timer may not be able to take a "blowoff" captain and bring him back to a professional position.

A good co-pilot will ensure that he is able to keep the captain within a standard deviation of acceptable operating behavior. If he is unable...he needs to have the experience and confidence to stop the show.

Carry on.

:yeahthat:

B767, you basically what I said previously, only better!

 

[Velocipede]

Good, real professional of you there sport.

Instead of taking the following people who have been posting in this thread:

-A mechanic with experience with the CFM-56 engine
-A captain that just passed his 737 type ride
-A pilot who has a degree in human factors/flight safety from one of the top programs in the country

And saying, "Hey, that was close but let me tell you what my experience on the 737 would lead me to believe," you have instead made an attempt to ostracize these people in front of a group of their peers.

Once again, as usual, you completely missed the mark. How you can highlight text, yet not understand the point is beyond me. It is, par for the course for you. The highlighted text came from the F/A who wrote the original "eyewitness (eyewitless)" account. She OBVIOUSLY had ZERO technical knowledge of what was going on. And a bunch of yahoos here started hypothesizing about what caused the failure based on ZERO familiarity or experience with the engine/airplane.

Read the Mach 3.18 breakup thread for an experts eye view of an accident.

See the difference? Probably not.

Then you start ranting and accuse me of denigrating a laundry list of people that I haven't even referred to. And, if you can read this thread for comprehension (which, at this point is in doubt) you'll find that the individuals you've enumerated generally agree with my take on the whole event and subsequent discussion.

The good news...you and Don are soulmates. You have the same negative knee jerk reaction to anything you see posted with the dragon. Slow down, take a deep breath, READ AND UNDERSTAND what is written, THEN you may add your commentary based on your overwhelming level of aviation experience.

That's not good leadership. It never has been and never will be.

I love being lectured about leadership by a 20 something stud who is 7 years out of high school.

You had an opportunity to shine here, yet another situation where you could lead by example and mentor some pilots, but you pissed it away.

You can't "mentor" someone who thinks he knows it all based on 4 months continuous service in the right seat of an RJ. Oh, I forgot all that Beech 99 time. My bad.

For being somebody that harps on professionalism you don't exactly seem to exude this trait that you seemingly hold so dear, but good luck next time.

Sometimes "professionalism" can be defined as the ability to listen and learn from those of us who have been where you want to be. Unfortunately, if you are unwilling to do that, you may never get there. Go ahead, John, try running your line on a real live Captain instead of on an anonymous webboard and see how far it gets you.

Let the laughs begin!

 

[Velocipede]

Velo- i like some of your posts on this website and needless to say you have great experience in the field of aviation. Chicaga posted this particular story so that perhaps we can analyze and learn something from it. Nothing more.

Analysis is one thing. Rabid speculation is another. The thread went INSTANTLY to "Ohmygod its a fan burst! How come the cowling didn't contain the fan shrapnel."

Ridculous. Pilots acting like a bunch of scared Mary newspaper writers (not jounalists!) who have a miniscule bit of technical knowledge and present themselves as experts.

Over the years, i have seen many posts by Chicaga. Most of his subjects are educational and intersting to say the least. His whole intentions are to educate and have a discussion in a professional manner- just like the intention of the webmaster!

Then he should know better than to post an account by a scared F/A who doesn't have clue what happened and present it as something remotely interesting to a professionl aviator.

 

[MQAAord]

Then he should know better than to post an account by a scared F/A who doesn't have clue what happened and present it as something remotely interesting to a professionl aviator.

Seems to me most of the discussion has centered around the photos of the incident, not the written account by the "scared F/A who doesn't have a clue". And generally speaking, an engine malfunction inflight is usually of interest to professional aviatiors.

Again you have come off spewing venom & attitude....

 

[adreamer]

I like that avatar, Amber.

 

[MQAAord]

I like that avatar, Amber.

Thanks

 

[Bumblebee]

Seems to me most of the discussion has centered around the photos of the incident, not the written account by the "scared F/A who doesn't have a clue". And generally speaking, an engine malfunction inflight is usually of interest to professional aviatiors.

Again you have come off spewing venom & attitude....

Seems to me that old Velo still doesn't have the sack to respond to my posts . . . he refuses to acknowledge that he has any culpability in the degradation of the discussions in many threads around this site from one of learning to one of insulting behavior. He spouts, people react, and he sits in his lonely world enjoying the flames. He has not responded to me now in three different threads, because I am not as easily attacked, the points I make are valid, and he does not want to face the fact that he often acts like a jerk.

That would be a tough one to have to acknowledge.

So he moves from thread to thread crapping in our living room. I am not into digging out the kernels of wisdom from someone I do not respect. I have tried to engage him on these subjects because I felt that he may take the opportunity to learn here as well, about mentoring, about communicating with respect, but it is becoming clear that his purpose is not one of advancement of the aviation community, or himself, but rather one of some sort of sick self gratification to what purpose I can only guess.

As far as it being O.K. that he acts this way here because we all may have to deal with somebody like him in the flight deck, bull. This is not a flight deck, and besides, condescending behavior is not professional behavior there either. If a captain spoke to me in the way this guy comes in here and addresses us "newbies" on the flight deck, I would address it face to face and then if we could not work it out, take it to the chief, because this sort of demeaning behavior is not conducive to a productive or safe work environment. (as a matter of fact, I have already had to do this)

This is designed to be a learning environment. Poor old Velocipede would not last teaching with these kinds of acerbic retorts. We had a guy fired from our training department last year because he could not control his condescending attitude towards new hires.

Obviously Velocipede, you did not take my advice and read Doug's post on "paying it forward." If you did, you did not take it to heart. That is what this website is all about. We have been in a battle here for a long time to keep civility the basis for discussion. I rarely say anything not nice, or not accurate, and when I have been wrong I admit it and learn, and then move on.

Why don't you either learn from your mistakes or move on? I'd rather the former, but I'll take the latter.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Yup your right. I was looking at that band of "plastic" on the inside of the cowl that the N1 rotates within, it looked like those blades were behind it. The CFMs on the DC8 had a booster section just aft of the N1, those pics kind of looked like it but more closely you can see the blades are the diameter of the inside of the cowling.

After seeing the initial picture, I came to the same conclusion you did... That the entire fan section disintegrated. The second set of pictures is much better in showing some detail on the damage to the fan, however.

Then you start ranting and accuse me of denigrating a laundry list of people that I haven't even referred to. And, if you can read this thread for comprehension (which, at this point is in doubt) you'll find that the individuals you've enumerated generally agree with my take on the whole event and subsequent discussion.

Actually, two of the people he mentioned in his laundry list were me. You have referred to me by name in a few responses in this thread. However, like I said before, my initial take on the first picture posted was incorrect. I thought I saw one thing, but looking at some better quality photos it was clear it was something else. Yes, I'll even say it: You were right. So I do agree with you, but only after seeing some more detailed pictures of the damage. It would have been helpful to have an explanation why I was wrong, and helped add value and substance to this out of control thread.

Then he should know better than to post an account by a scared F/A who doesn't have clue what happened and present it as something remotely interesting to a professionl aviator.

This thread had nothing to do with the eyewitness account of what happened, but rather, as professionals, that it should be something interesting to learn from. Things like this just don't happen every day. More importantly, it was a thread to give kudos to a crew who had a very bad day but were able to safely handle the situation and get the plane on the ground safely. From a CRM standpoint, it's awesome to hear that the flight crew requested a jumpseating pilot assist them in the cockpit. More eyes and ears are always helpful; we learned this during our medical emergency last week with a deadheading flight attendant on board.

In some ways, the first-hand account by the jumpseating flight attendant was interesting to me. We have our own perspective of these emergencies as pilots, and we forget how it affects our fellow crewmembers in back, not to mention the customers. Hearing an account like this gives some perspective of what it's like to be back there as a cabin crewmember, not knowing the details of what is going on up front.

Hopefully we can get this thread back on track as something useful and informative, and leave all the egocentric bickering for the lavatory. I don't care if you have 300 hours or 30,000 hours, in aviation you should always be open to learning. The day I stop learning is the day I retire. Then I'll go down a path towards learning about a new subject: Ocean sport fishing.

 

[Velocipede]

Seems to me that old Velo still doesn't have the sack to respond to my posts

OK, here's your response.

. . . he refuses to acknowledge that he has any culpability in the degradation of the discussions in many threads around this site from one of learning to one of insulting behavior. He spouts, people react, and he sits in his lonely world enjoying the flames. He has not responded to me now in three different threads, because I am not as easily attacked, the points I make are valid, and he does not want to face the fact that he often acts like a jerk.

Or maybe the boys who reply to me are the ones acting out. They, down deep, recognize that they do not have the experience to make the pronouncements they make, but their pilot egos won't let them admit it. So, they go ont the attack. Sort of like you are now.

So he moves from thread to thread crapping in our living room. I am not into digging out the kernels of wisdom from someone I do not respect. I have tried to engage him on these subjects because I felt that he may take the opportunity to learn here as well, about mentoring, about communicating with respect, but it is becoming clear that his purpose is not one of advancement of the aviation community, or himself, but rather one of some sort of sick self gratification to what purpose I can only guess.

Actually, I only address topics that I have experience in. You do not see me talking about CFIs or flight schools. I'll leave that to those who do have experience there: the 200 hour RJ F/Os who should address those items rather than the airline industry in general.

And, as far as your "living room" goes...well, its a profit making business, or Doug wouldn't be selling advertising. And what drive the rates is hits on the website. I guarantee you I'm the best thing that's happened around here lately. Look at any thread I post on. It rapidly grows to three digit length. And the website hits just keep on coming...putting dollars in Doug and Kristie's pockets.

As far as it being O.K. that he acts this way here because we all may have to deal with somebody like him in the flight deck, bull. This is not a flight deck, and besides, condescending behavior is not professional behavior there either. If a captain spoke to me in the way this guy comes in here and addresses us "newbies" on the flight deck, I would address it face to face and then if we could not work it out, take it to the chief, because this sort of demeaning behavior is not conducive to a productive or safe work environment. (as a matter of fact, I have already had to do this)

The fact of the matter is, you have no idea how I run my flight deck. Did it ever occur to you that like sports columnists, I say things here for effect. And, Lord knows, it gets the reactions. All they've got to see is the dragon avatar and jtrain, Donny, Fins Up and now you go to emergency power and your blood starts boiling.

It's so painfully obvious that your chain is getting pulled. Guess what? There are a lot of people laughing.

Obviously Velocipede, you did not take my advice and read Doug's post on "paying it forward." If you did, you did not take it to heart. That is what this website is all about. We have been in a battle here for a long time to keep civility the basis for discussion. I rarely say anything not nice, or not accurate, and when I have been wrong I admit it and learn, and then move on.

Guess what? Paying it forward sometimes consists of removing a little hot air from the tender egos here. Just because you go "HIRED" or "PASSED IOE" or made your 500 hour threshold and are getting paid to fly an RJ doesn't make you an aviation expert. In fact, it makes you the most dangerous pilot in the skies because you think you "know it all and have arrived."

I'll bet you anything you want to bet the seasoned guys here like CalCapt will tell you we learn something new every day. We learn it from our peers and our subordinates alike. However, you've got to be open to the learning, swallow your ego and listen to what people tell you. That's the problem here. Some of you guys are so "namby pamby" that you can't handle the fact that your inexperience makes your opinons non-credible at the least and absolutely invalid at the worst.

So, until you can show some credentials, I'd limit your "expertise" to telling the flight students the best way to earn their private pilot's license or discussing the flight characteristics of the mighty Cessna 172.

I'll gladly listen and learn from you then.

 

[Malko]

.......I guarantee you I'm the best thing that's happened around here lately.

another thing said for effect.....

....Look at any thread I post on........It's so painfully obvious that your chain is getting pulled. Guess what? There are a lot of people laughing......

People are laughing.... but I doubt it is at BBee.

....So, until you can show some credentials, I'd limit your "expertise" to telling the flight students the best way to earn their private pilot's license or discussing the flight characteristics of the mighty Cessna 172....I'll gladly listen and learn from you then.

Let's see....I would think being awarded a Captain upgrade is credential enough. Maybe you should start listening....

 

[BobDDuck]

Dammit... I hate agreeing Velo. But some times I sort of have to.

WHAT he is saying is 100% correct.

HOW he is saying it is 100% (well, maybe 99%) wrong.

 

[MQAAord]

Did it ever occur to you that like sports columnists, I say things here for effect.

And with that, you've lost even more credibility in my book.

Take a little break Velo. Please.