Suggestions for flying the pattern

naunga

New Member
Hey all,

Finally started getting into the traffic pattern in my last few lessons, and well...it hasn't been pretty.

My instructor says I'm rounding out well, but that's when I don't have to loose 1000 feet on final.

I'm loosing about 200 feet on the turn from downwind to base, but my base seems nonexistent and I end up gaining 200 back on the turn from base to final.

Any tips?

Cheers.

Naunga
 
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but my base seems nonexistent

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Cool, military patterns.
 
What you're describing is pretty common. There are differences in the way landings are taught. Full flaps, no flaps; constant airspeed, incremental airspeed reductions until final. Most are correct, just different. So your best bet is more practice with your instructor.

But here's some ideas that might help.

If your base leg is virtually non-existent you are generally doing one or both of two things. One is simply being too close to the runway on downwind.

That's usually not the problem, though. Are you flying a Cessna? Are you trying to keep an eye on the runway during the base turn? If you are, then the chances are that you are in a very shallow bank and it's taking too long to make the turn. Assuming it's a left turn, before you make the turn, look to your left, pick a landmark to line up with. Roll cleanly into a 20º bank and roll out to line up with the landmark. When you roll out, you'll see that you are on base and in good position to visualize your remaining path to the runway and make adjustments.

The excessive loss of altitude in the base turn might simply be because the length of time you are in the turn, or it can be because of not maintaining pitch. Whether you are being taught constant airspeed from downwind to final or incremental airspeed reductions until final, each leg of the pattern has a target airspeed. And the best way to maintain it in a turn is to take the pitch attitude that gave you the airspeed on the leg and maintain it through the turn. Don't mess with the pitch or the power =during= the turn. You =will= lose altitude faster in the turn, but that's normal. Wait until the turn is completed.

Don't know if this will help. It's hard to work on specific things in an online forum, even if we could see exactly what you are doing.
 
Yeah pretty much.

I'm getting pretty good at carrier landings too.
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Saw a couple of Navy trainers at BKL once doing TG's.

Pretty awesome, to see them doing 60+ degree turns from downwind to base/final. Come to think of it they were pretty much slamming the mains on the runway too...hmm where do I sign up.

Naunga
 
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So your best bet is more practice with your instructor.

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Going to do that this afternoon. Just looking for some different perspectives. Sometimes a different explanation can make all the difference.

Right now I'm landing with full flaps. Shooting for 80 KIAS on downwind after passing my touchdown point.

I'm doing a 30º turn from base to final. But as soon as I roll level onto base, I've overshot the runway and end up having to continue the turn from base right onto final.

I just thought about something I might be doing. I might be in a very shallow bank towards the runway on downwind, or not correcting enough for the wind.

Hmmm....This is why I talk to you guys.

Thanks for the tips.

Cheers.

Naunga
 
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Yeah pretty much.

I'm getting pretty good at carrier landings too.
tongue.gif


Saw a couple of Navy trainers at BKL once doing TG's.

Pretty awesome, to see them doing 60+ degree turns from downwind to base/final. Come to think of it they were pretty much slamming the mains on the runway too...hmm where do I sign up.

Naunga

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Yup. We fly the same 60 degree turns from downwind to final; no base leg. Any more downwind displacement than having the runway at the wingtip is a C-5 pattern. No such thing as a base leg; consistent turn to final to roll out on a nominal 3 degree GP, or 300' at 1 mile.

We don't slam the mains, the Navy jets do even at land bases for two reasons:

1. To keep up "the touch" for carrier landings.

2. Some aircraft require it. The F/A-18s flight control system is touchy. In the beginning of F/A-18 service, the Navy had some of the jets rolling over on landing touchdown/rollout. The flight control system allows different control surface deflection amounts/rates when the plane is in the air versus when it's on the ground (much more tempered). Turns out, the flight control system only senses that the plane is on the ground if sufficient oloe compression happens to activate the sensors. A few guys had landed and kissed the runway, then put in a crosswind correction, but the plane thought it was still airborne and full-deflected in that direction, causing the jet to rollover and killing the pilot
 
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I'm doing a 30º turn from base to final. But as soon as I roll level onto base, I've overshot the runway and end up having to continue the turn from base right onto final.

I just thought about something I might be doing. I might be in a very shallow bank towards the runway on downwind, or not correcting enough for the wind.

[/ QUOTE ]If we eliminate the too shallow base turn, then you are probably right in your self analysis. With that kind of self-examination, you're sure to find the solution.

Are you lining up with a landmark for your downwind? Remember that the pattern is essentially those rectangular course ground reference maneuvers that too many CFIs don't bother with. You're picking a path that is parallel fro the runway and a specified distance from it. If there is any crosswind, you wont keep that path unless you pick something to line up with. The side hint is that it' tends to be easier to gauge your distance from the runway by thinking parallel path than by looking at it out the side window,

The only "danger" with doing that is getting used to a certain landmark. "Line up with the K-Mart" doesn't help much when you go to another airport. But "Hmm. What's out there to line up with" will help with maintaining distance at your home drome or a strange one.
 
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[The side hint is that it' tends to be easier to gauge your distance from the runway by thinking parallel path than by looking at it out the side window,

The only "danger" with doing that is getting used to a certain landmark. "Line up with the K-Mart" doesn't help much when you go to another airport. But "Hmm. What's out there to line up with" will help with maintaining distance at your home drome or a strange one.

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You should be easily able pick-up lining the runway up with a wing reference, then noticing if you're drifting closer or further away based on that reference. I'd reccommend using this first and using ground references as a back-up.
 
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Are you lining up with a landmark for your downwind?

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I am, but I may be losing sight of it. BKL is great for pattern work since there is a breakwall in the lake that runs parallel to the runway.

Perhaps I'll see if I can find a new landmark today.

Thanks again.

Naunga
 
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I'm doing a 30º turn from base to final. But as soon as I roll level onto base, I've overshot the runway and end up having to continue the turn from base right onto final.

[/ QUOTE ]Hmm. You're using a 20º bank from downwind to base, and a 30º bank from base to final?? A 30º bank is too steep for your base-to-final turn in most light singles. Why? Here's a hint: what's your airspeed at that point? What's your stall speed in a 30º bank? The base-to-final turn is notoriously ripe for the stall/spin scenario for this very reason (not to mention the temptation to rudder the turn a bit to avoid having to s-turn onto final--this is the standard setup for a cross-controlled stall, which you won't recover from on a normal final approach path).

I turn to final with no more than a 15º bank. I used to suffer from the s-turn-to-final problem too, but nowadays, if anything, I start my turn to final too soon. But that turn to final is a slow, gentle one, and thusly more stall-resistant. Can't start your turn earlier? Then your downwind leg is too close to the runway, which means you're not waiting long enough before turning downwind.
 
Opps. My bad.

I'm using a 30º bank to turn from downwind to base.

Base to final is whatever it takes to get aligned with the runway.

Although when I have a non-existent base leg then I'm continuing that 30º turn to get onto final.

Naunga
 
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You should be easily able pick-up lining the runway up with a wing reference, then noticing if you're drifting closer or further away based on that reference. I'd recommend using this first and using ground references as a back-up.

[/ QUOTE ]There's a strong "wing reference" school of thought out there. I think it's even the technique used by the majority of CFIs. But (maybe just to be different) I do it the opposite. I think it happened as soon as I flew my second type of airplane and all of the views were completely different. I learned in a Tomahawk and transitioned to a C172. On my first downwind to base turn, my immediate thought was, "where the heck did the runway go?".
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I've been picking landmarks ever since. Still do. Wing reference points change with every change in airplane type . And they even change depending on whether you are i the left or right seat. But no matter what I fly, the runway and the road paralleling it 1/2 mile away never seem to move!

I teach wing references if I see a pilot who is having trouble with the landmark method on the theory that we all learn a little differently.
 
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I've been picking landmarks ever since. Still do. Wing reference points change with every change in airplane type . And they even change depending on whether you are i the left or right seat. But no matter what I fly, the runway and the road paralleling it 1/2 mile away never seem to move!

I teach wing references if I see a pilot who is having trouble with the landmark method on the theory that we all learn a little differently.

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IMO, the best method is to use whichever one happens to work better for you. If the method of using landmarks is easily transitionable from airport to airport for you, then that's a perfectly effective method to use.
 
30* should be fine. It's once you start going past that when things can get out of hand. Your stall speed will only rise a few knows in a 30* bank (less than 4 for joe trainer). It's the steepening bank, bottom rudder (to prevent overshooting) and pulling back to maintain altitude that is a serious problem.

Just do what your instructor recommends
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